Integrated Amps for Summits/Vantages

[rhom]

Hi Everyone,

Some of the current integrated amps look really inviting these days, I recently began taking notice of the BAT VK-300x, Ayre AX-5e, Mcintosh MA-2275 and MA-6xxx series, ARC VSi55 (not enough watts?) and others like the discontinued Mark Levinson ML-383. I also notice that a number of you have integrated amps hooked to your MLs.

Never had an integrated amp. One thing that I have noticed is that the manufacturers don't always list 2 ohm load specifications for their integrated amps and these two ML models reportedly have very low impedances at treble frequencies. How have you Summit and Vantage owners liked your integrated amps? Do you find your integrated amp's performance to be satisfying on your Summits or Vantages?

Just curious. Thank you for your responses!

Rick

 

[twich54]

ARC VSi55 (not enough watts?)

these two ML models reportedly have very low impedances at treble frequencies.

I think the new ARC would do just fine, it all depends on your listening tastes, room,etc. Remember both the Summitt and Vantage with their internally powered bass drivers are rather easy to drive.

In so far as the low impedence dip in the upper freq range, not that big a deal....how much energy / musical content to you hear/listen to above 17k ??
What is their is not that demanding on ones amp IMO.

 

[User211]

In so far as the low impedence dip in the upper freq range, not that big a deal....how much energy / musical content to you hear/listen to above 17k ??
What is their is not that demanding on ones amp IMO.

Top post, Dave.

 

[rhom]

I think the new ARC would do just fine, it all depends on your listening tastes, room,etc. Remember both the Summitt and Vantage with their internally powered bass drivers are rather easy to drive.

In so far as the low impedence dip in the upper freq range, not that big a deal....how much energy / musical content to you hear/listen to above 17k ??
What is their is not that demanding on ones amp IMO.

Thanks, Dave. The reason that I mentioned wattage is that there was quite a lively debate on this forum some months ago when a number of members believed that these two MLs sound their best with high power amps. My current amp is capable of delivering more than 400 watts into 2 ohms and I am satisfied. However, most integrated amps tend to have less output than this.

The impedance issue was mentioned because of previous discussion in this forum on this subject in this forum. This seemed to be a concern for many of the members during that discussion.

I have a slightly different view of 17K frequency. True, there may not be much content above 17K and many of us might not be able to directly hear 17K output. However, the ability of our systems to accurately produce energy at this frequency and above may affect our perception of sound frquencies at or below this 17K.

Not trying to start an argument. Just interested if other members have had good success with integrated amps and if they are satisfied vs. looking to purchase separates.

Thanks again!

Rick

 

[stereoman]

Hi Rick:
I'm using a 20 watt integrated amp with my Summits. The EAR V20 (http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productdetails.asp?page=1&id=1) is a class "A" tube design that is a match made in heaven for the Summits.
Bill.

 

[MiTT]

My buddy Joe is driving his Summits with the BAT VK-300x SE version with the 6H30 tubes and it sounds great! It has PLENTY of juice.

 

[bsckwan]

My Pathos Logos http://www.pathosacoustics.com/logoseng.htm can drive my Vantage very well. There is another gentlemen on this forum who has a similar setup. The Vantage is a lot easier to drive comparing to my Aerius.

 

[tonepub]

I've had excellent results with the Naim SuperNait, the Rega Elicit and the SimAudio Moon i7 as well as the 30wpc class A Luxman 590-A II.

We also had great luck with the McIntosh MA7000 from last issue.

Matter of fact if you'd like mine, it's up for sale, too much gear around here!

PM if interested.

 

[magnoliarichj]

I've had excellent results with the Naim SuperNait, the Rega Elicit and the SimAudio Moon i7 as well as the 30wpc class A Luxman 590-A II.

We also had great luck with the McIntosh MA7000 from last issue.

Matter of fact if you'd like mine, it's up for sale, too much gear around here!

PM if interested.

So help me under stand how an amp with 20 watts runs a speaker that requires 100-300....

im familiar with lighting and 1 watt puts out lets say 5 lumens on an incondescent bulb where as 1 watt on a halide bulb puts out 50... is this the same type of situation where 30 watts of tube power is like 100 of digital power.


also what type of volume leves do you achieve with this low wattage rating.

 

[tonepub]

Way better volume level than I expected...

The 590 has a lot of current reserve and the ML's
have a sensitivity of 92db.

No, it doesn't play as loud as my premier 350 which is 350/ch,
but I've been amazed at how well it does.

Too bad you don't live down the street, you could come over and take a listen!

 

[David Matz]

I think the new ARC would do just fine, it all depends on your listening tastes, room,etc. Remember both the Summitt and Vantage with their internally powered bass drivers are rather easy to drive.

In so far as the low impedence dip in the upper freq range, not that big a deal....how much energy / musical content to you hear/listen to above 17k ??
What is their is not that demanding on ones amp IMO.

Dave,

Have you ever plugged the Plinius back in ever since getting the Rogues?

If I had both an SS amp and a tube amp, I would switch them out every couple of weeks. I crave the "sweetness" of tubes and I love the ease and control of the monster powered SS power amps.

 

[SteveInNC]

The argument for amps that work well at low impedance has less to do with driving high volume than it does with the stability of the amp into a low impedance load. Of note, conventional cone speakers increase in impedance as frequency rises, which is the opposite of ML panels which decrease in impedance as frequency rises. Amps with high-current capability tend to handle this better. High-current is not necessarily the same as high-power in this context.

I noticed a distinct improvement in sound going from a SS amp rated at 360 watts/channel continuous, to a high-current SS amp rated at 250 w/ch, because the latter handles the load better. High frequency reproduction is notably clearer, even at moderate listening levels.

 

[tonepub]

Yep, well put...

As for tubes with ML....

Some work well others do not. Try before you buy....

 

[twich54]

Dave,

Have you ever plugged the Plinius back in ever since getting the Rogues?

If I had both an SS amp and a tube amp, I would switch them out every couple of weeks. I crave the "sweetness" of tubes and I love the ease and control of the monster powered SS power amps.

Hi Dave,

Yes I have had the 'Plinny' back in the mix several times, I must admitt that now that I've rolled in my tubes of choice it's been months since I've listened to anything but the Rogues. FWIW, I just can't part with the SA-102.

With regards to the SS vs. tube thing, couple things to remember...1) As you know the real control for the Vantages bottom end comes from their own built in amp. 2) given the Wide Bandwidth of the Rogue M-150's this insures that a "well-contolled / complete signal" is thus sent to said amp.

My listening confirma no loss in bottom end presence or control whereas in did take a IC cable change to maintain the pristine highs of the 'Plinny'.

 

[congers]

I am an owner of the ML Vantages and have recently purchased Conrad Johnson's LP66S Tube Amp and ET2 Tube Pre Amp to replace CJ 2250A SS Amp and PV14l2 Tube Pre. The change is quite astonishing. The 60 Watts of power in this amp is more than what I need for moderate to occasionally loud volume.

As much as I enjoy Martin Logan's, I always focused on individual instruments rather than the music. That has all changed. The wholeness of the sound makes listening to music much more enjoyable and I am cured of focusing on individual elements of the music.

Mike

 

[gmartan]

Integrated for Summits

The argument for amps that work well at low impedance has less to do with driving high volume than it does with the stability of the amp into a low impedance load. Of note, conventional cone speakers increase in impedance as frequency rises, which is the opposite of ML panels which decrease in impedance as frequency rises. Amps with high-current capability tend to handle this better. High-current is not necessarily the same as high-power in this context.

I noticed a distinct improvement in sound going from a SS amp rated at 360 watts/channel continuous, to a high-current SS amp rated at 250 w/ch, because the latter handles the load better. High frequency reproduction is notably clearer, even at moderate listening levels.

I used to have a Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 300 integrated which was a great match for my Summits. I suspect the KW series is close to the same sound. When the Tri-Vista died I purchased McIntosh including the MC402 and that just didn't work at all in the high frequencies. Midrange and bass was fantastic. That suggests that this amp with 400 watts did not deliver enough current.

While I was sorting that out I used the 80 watt Unico Integrated from my den and it sounded pretty good especially with Mullard 12AX7 tubes fronting the Mosfet power section. Bass was a little week but very musical and extended. Now I have a McIntosh C2300 tube pre-amp fronting a Classe CA-2200 power amp. It looks funny together but sounds fantastic.

There are a number of great Hybrid integrated amps out there that should have great synergy. Has anyone tried the Cayin H-80? Pass labs also has a new integrated but I remember their other stuff being so transparent that most CDs were unlistenable.

 

[gmartan]

I think the new ARC would do just fine, it all depends on your listening tastes, room,etc. Remember both the Summitt and Vantage with their internally powered bass drivers are rather easy to drive.

In so far as the low impedence dip in the upper freq range, not that big a deal....how much energy / musical content to you hear/listen to above 17k ??
What is their is not that demanding on ones amp IMO.

My personal experience is different. Each jump from 100 watts to 200 watts to 400 watts of amplifier power produced very noticable increases in bass control even though, in theory, the speakers see only the internal amps. Also, even though I can't hear anything above 12KHz the lack of air and overall musicality of some amps driving the electrostatic panels couldn't possibly be more obvious.

 

[audioangel]

Pass Labs and GamuT

You could also try the Pass Labs INT-150 or the GamuT I-150. Both big an powerfull amps, especially the GamuT.