Image focus (vocalist) question

[kwr]

No one has answered this question though (unless I missed it)...

Will an amp upgrade (say to a Rotel 1090 or Plinius) bring about a more etched Focus, as I've noticed amps do on several conventional speakers? I'm talking pure experience here, no hearsay hearsay.

I want that brutal etched vocalist focus...

I think a lot of people are trying to cut out the middleman, proffer their experienced opinion and save you money and grief but to provide you with some direct experience.....

Speaker ML Monolith IIIp

Extensive auditioning at dealer in 1997 with big Rotel stereo amp, big Aragon amp and Gryphon Antileon with Theta digital source and preamp. From memory the Rotel was harsh with poor soundstaging, Aragon was polite with clear dynamic limitations and the Gryphon was brilliant with incredible soundstaging and pinpoint positioning.

At home with the same speakers in a variety of rooms have had extensive listening with Krell KSA150, Linx 120 monoblocs,Plinius SA100 in stereo and monoblocs, Plinius SA102 in stereo and monoblocs and have auditioned Classe 400 and Krell FPB 300c.

Let me break the bad news to you again - speaker/room interaction has far more to do with focus and soundstage than amplification. If you really want highly focussed you have got the wrong speaker. You need Quads but you will give away image size and dynamic range and bass response. I have extensive experience with Quads and if I was single is the speaker I would go for ( I don't get excited about big time bass).

There is a difference between these amplifiers and the soundstage champ is the Plinius SA102. The etched focus champ is the Krell KSA150. All these amps have been heard via a Krell KPS20i/l and an Audio Aero Capitole 24/192 via their on board variable output directly to the amps. The Krell is again etched in its presentation and the Audio Aero beats it in every area. Images with the Krell are harshly outlined rather then emerging from the soundstage.

To disconcert you even further the impact of different preamps and sources is usually greater than that of amplification. Again within the ML system we have played with different preamps (Meridian, Krell, Linx, Audio Aero, Consonance and Plinius) some of these are within the context of a variable output on a cdp and different cdps Meridian, Krell, Shanling, Audio Aero, Plinius, CEC transport. Most of this is idle fooling around, after 20 years of not selling audio gear we can put together a lot of different variations.

The Focal Krell combination you heard does not surprise me in your assesment of it. The tweeter is forward in its nature. We have speakers with Focals previous topflight tweeter which is also a little hot so we wire it in negative phase to the midrange to settle it a bit - you can do that with a second order crossover . Also a lot of JM Labs/Focal speakers are not noted for their off axis response resulting in a pretty small sweet spot.


With you current equipment, look to near field listening to gain the focus you are looking for. Heresy!!!! put your speakers on castors and pull them into the room for serious listening. Go for the giant headphones trick and sit in a 6ft equilateral triangle. Repeat after me.... speaker/room interaction has far more to do with focus and soundstaging than any other factor. Amplifiers may well have the least impact.

You can tell there is a lot of experience on this forum Joey. People do not want to tell you what to do as there is such variance in taste, rooms,equipment interaction and the music listened to.

The biggest ways to improve your system are the quality of the recording, the nature of the speaker/room interaction a comfy chair and a glass of wine. You can certainly get better equipment by spending money but you may well not get a better experience.

Kevin

 

[Taz]

With you current equipment, look to near field listening to gain the focus you are looking for. Heresy!!!! put your speakers on castors and pull them into the room for serious listening. Go for the giant headphones trick and sit in a 6ft equilateral triangle. Repeat after me.... speaker/room interaction has far more to do with focus and soundstaging than any other factor. Amplifiers may well have the least impact.

You can tell there is a lot of experience on this forum Joey. People do not want to tell you what to do as there is such variance in taste, rooms,equipment interaction and the music listened to.

The biggest ways to improve your system are the quality of the recording, the nature of the speaker/room interaction a comfy chair and a glass of wine. You can certainly get better equipment by spending money but you may well not get a better experience.

Kevin

.

Great point here and to others who have mentioned this point. Move those badboys all over it took me a lot of moving them around but when I hit the right spot it was heaven!!!

 

[Robin]

Imagining From ML Loud Speakers...

Factors that affect imaging will include:
your room and reflections from all six major surfaces and all those little things on all those surfaces

the recording studio's refecltions (see above) or
the the place it was recorded live

the recording engineer's set up and mixing choices

then your speakers and electronics


To compare systems be sure to use the same CD then you will only checking out the listening rooms, speakers, and electronics.

I suggest you go to a few live performances of someone that you want to compare "reality" to listiening room imaging. Imaging in the live is not as focussed as you describe in most consert or club situations.

Then decide what you want in your home.

Joel

Joey,

I agree with Joel, IMHO imagining ML speakers is a distinct challenge to the ML HT owner. Your biggest piece of HT gear in your system is your HT room. Most recording studio's use direct firing speakers, not dipoles like your Summit ML's electrostatic speakers to focus and edit recordings... It is incumbent on you to adjust your dipole speakers by defusing and / or absorbing the rear sound waves to your liking, "Trusting your ears" during the process really helps of course... Their are a million and one ways to adjusting your HT room, behind your Summits (many have been suggested at the ML Club) should focus the vocals to your liking. Good luck Joey 'The Kid' tweaking your HT room.

Having said the above, I just love Jeff's set-up, and agree with his tubed pre-amp ideas as well. As you know his system to tres cool...

PS - New Photos of Joey's New Summits are the key to providing optimal assistance in this matter, wouldn't you all agree...

Just kidding Joey, please keep studying....

 

[tonyc]

Joey, planar speakers will NEVER image like a point source. It is a fundamental tradeoff. The other members have given you great advice on how to improve imaging. In you current distressed student state I think the biggest bang for the buck will come from modest room treatment.

 

[garmtz]

Hi DTB300!

Thanks for reinforcing my ideas...

Could you tell me what products from Auralex you used exactly?
As I am a dealer of this stuff here in The Netherlands, I would
like to know for my own home theater I am building at this
moment.

Thanks!

 

[DTB300]

Hi DTB300! Thanks for reinforcing my ideas...

Thanks for starting this topic as I feel it is one that needs to be discussed more often. The more people read about the benefits of room treatments and their effect versus the cost, then more will give it a try and see the true benefits.

Over the past 6 months to a year, I have been experimenting with room acoustics to improve my sound. It started out with blankets, towels, fake trees, foam from packing, etc. etc. just to see what affect things had in different spots in my room.

The components in my setup, I am very happy with, so the next thing is to help the room out. Room acoustics is a very neglected part of our systems as we tend to purchase another component as the solution. There are many companies out there with reasonably priced products, GIK Acoustics for example (Thanks Steve D.!!!), to help out our rooms. Ethan Winer of Real Traps also offers some very nice products, and Ethan also moderates a conference solely for room acoustics. Jon Risch also has a nice DIY bass trap design on his web site. ASC was one of the first companies I knew about for room acousstics with their Bass Traps, and then other products.

The biggest problem most of us face with room acoustics is the "Acceptance Factor" on how these things look in our rooms. If you are like me, the room where my system is located is also a living space. So I must try to balance out living space and listening studio appearance.

Could you tell me what products from Auralex you used exactly?

DST-D36 Package. Most of it is applied behind my CLSIIz's, and then I applied some to a piece of foam board and have it hanging (4-5ft) behind my head on the front of a bookcase. Overall, as I applied the pieces, I did listening tests, made changes to the layout of the pieces, tested again, and finally came up with what worked for my setup and my room. The application of the Auralex helped in bringing out more detail between instruments and/or vocals, and of course improved sound. (BTW, I attached the Auralex pieces using "T-Pins" for ease of installation, and the ability to move them around.)

Like I stated earlier in this thead, I plan on attacking first reflection points on the side walls next, along with incresed application behind me. Once I sell off some of my last old equipment and unused cables, I should have enough $$$ to purchase some of the GIK Stuff. Right now I am planning on the 242 model for the reflection points I mentioned.

As I am a dealer of this stuff here in The Netherlands, I would like to know for my own home theater I am building at this moment.

Yeah I know...I contacted you when I purchased my Auralex package.

Dan

 

[garmtz]

Thanks for starting this topic as I feel it is one that needs to be discussed more often. The more people read about the benefits of room treatments and their effect versus the cost, then more will give it a try and see the true benefits.

I TOTALLY agree!

DST-D36 Package.

Nice choice!

Most of it is applied behind my CLSIIz's, and then I applied some to a piece of foam board and have it hanging (4-5ft) behind my head on the front of a bookcase. Overall, as I applied the pieces, I did listening tests, made changes to the layout of the pieces, tested again, and finally came up with what worked for my setup and my room. The application of the Auralex helped in bringing out more detail between instruments and/or vocals, and of course improved sound. (BTW, I attached the Auralex pieces using "T-Pins" for ease of installation, and the ability to move them around.)

Smart! I also intent to use DTS, but I am also looking at the ProPanels.

Right now I am planning on the 242 model for the reflection points I mentioned.

Should work just fine!

Yeah I know...I contacted you when I purchased my Auralex package.

I remember of course, it was too clarify it for others!

 

[Munster]

Take a look at some of these traps,kinda big but seem to fit.

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13643

 

[Joey_V]

Seems as if my thread went off track a little... that's ok.

I just wanted to post a resolution to my initial dilemma so that future readers will know what happened.

Well, I moved my Summits about 2/3 inwards (toe in) and they sound marvelous now! I get the vocal focus I have been looking for. Etched at times, yet retaining that "natural" aura that MLs are notoriously famous for presenting.

Almost as good a focus as the Beryllium tweeter on the newer JM Labs but more natural.

I will say that these ML (dipole) speakers are very very room picky, position picky. A slight change will definitely alter the tonal characteristics of the speaker. More so than any conventional speaker I've used to date - and I've had a lot. With conventionals, I could move the speaker from a 0 toe in to a 1/3 toe in and NOT NOTICE a difference.... with the Logans, it is completely different.

 

[DTB300]

Seems as if my thread went off track a little... that's ok.

I removed my post on room treatments since I started a new one.

 

[Joey_V]

I removed my post on room treatments since I started a new one.

Dan,

Dont worry man..... its all good. You've been always a lot of help to me and I dont mind it at all.

Joey

 

[DTB300]

Dont worry man..... its all good. You've been always a lot of help to me and I dont mind it at all.

Not a big deal...Your thread did start talking about placement, then we hijacked it and turned it into room treatments. Both topics are very important for us to get the best sound we can.

BTW, have you experimented with forward/backward tilt of your speakers? Try raising or lower the rear pads/spikes and see what sound differences you get and which you like the best.

Dan