I'm Vexed..., I'm Incredibly Vexed...

[Rik_Rankin]

My Sony SACD Player

Still going strong. This pic was taken before I moved.

 

[attyonline]

You're right Jerry. I also frequent the Rotel Club which is where I have not seen you for a while. Sorry for the mixup.

 

[Robin]

I am Busily Researching Away...

Well, as you guy's can tell on the other 'Source' thread, I've found several contenders, thanks to all of you helping me out, which I very much appreciate BTW as always...

I'll share with you some of my findings so far. The prices next to the CD/SACD player (below) are the audiogon price. The players, which tend to meet my above requirements, brake down into two categories basically like this:

Tubed CD/SACD Players:
Audio Aero Prestige..$9,000 (USD)
Shanling T200........ $2,000

SS CD/SACD Players:
Mark Levinson 390S..$4,000
Wadia 581i..............$4,400
McIntosh MCD 201...$2,500

Still researching though. I just wish CD / SACD player manufactures, in their written information, would make it easier to know whether or not a player has volume control or could drive amplifiers. It's not a lot to ask really.

 

[Spike]

Still researching though. I just wish CD / SACD player manufactures, in their written information, would make it easier to know whether or not a player has volume control or could drive amplifiers. It's not a lot to ask really.

Robin,
You should give Dan Wright of ModWright a call regarding either the Denon or Sony with Signature mods. His signature mod is a derrivation of the SWL linestage so it's akin to having a simplified preamp stuffed inside the player. Given that this is the case, it should not be too hard to add an attenuation for volume control. Talk to Dan to see how he can accomodate for your need.

Spike

 

[Moo]

Oppo's DV970HD might do it for you

Have alook at what NuForce make of it:
http://www.nuforce.com/products-intamps.htm

 

[DrJRapp]

Have alook at what NuForce make of it:
http://www.nuforce.com/products-intamps.htm

I've heard that combo...mediocre at very best. Oppo is OK for 480i video over HDMI, but it's too full of jitter for much else.

 

[DTB300]

You should give Dan Wright of ModWright a call regarding either the Denon or Sony with Signature mods. His signature mod is a derrivation of the SWL linestage so it's akin to having a simplified preamp stuffed inside the player. Given that this is the case, it should not be too hard to add an attenuation for volume control. Talk to Dan to see how he can accomodate for your need.

I totally agree with Spike in regards to Dan Wright. Great customer service along with a great product. Give him a call and tell him your needs and he will be upfront and honest with you on "if" something can be done, and how much it will cost. Turnaround time is also excellent. I highly recommend Dan Wright for his mods and products.

Dan

 

[jjqiv]

I totally agree with Spike in regards to Dan Wright. Great customer service along with a great product. Give him a call and tell him your needs and he will be upfront and honest with you on "if" something can be done, and how much it will cost. Turnaround time is also excellent. I highly recommend Dan Wright for his mods and products.

Dan

With a good source and tube mono's, you can you a Placette Passive Pre for great attenuation.

Plus, you get switching and remote control.

http://www.10audio.com/placette.htm

 

[MiTT]

Tim,

I'm looking to build an audio system only. This would be gradually built in easy stages. This proposed future music system of mine would be separate from my HT system.

I plan on beginning with two mono block tube amplifiers driven directly by a powerful source CD/SACD player only. This basic audio equipment would be the basic gear powering Summits or some future, next speaker-up from the current Summits, that is if ML actually produces a bigger ESL speaker...

Then later to complete the system, add-in a TT with phono tubed pre-amp (for phono only, not for CD/ASCD - as this would remain separate and direct). As I envision my music system would be a strictly music listening in a dedicated music listening room exclusively.

I see...

So then your plan will be to get a tubed pre-amp so you have volume control for phono (or hey; just get the Asthetics Io Signature with a volume control - only about $12,000.00) and then you will plug and unplug cables at the amplifier when you want to switch sources?

Is your concern that a pre-amp that can function as both a volume control and source switch will color the sound too much? Not trying to play devils advocate as much as I'm curious. There are any number of very good pre-amps out there that would negate the need for a volume control at your silver disc source.

 

[Robin]

Will Consider Dan Wright....

Robin,
You should give Dan Wright of ModWright a call regarding either the Denon or Sony with Signature mods. His signature mod is a derrivation of the SWL linestage so it's akin to having a simplified preamp stuffed inside the player. Given that this is the case, it should not be too hard to add an attenuation for volume control. Talk to Dan to see how he can accomodate for your need.

Spike

Spike,

Great suggestion. I will definiately consider Dave and his Modwright service. I think he could save me a bundle in the long run...

Thanks

 

[Robin]

No Pre-Amplifier, No Thank You - Respectfully Of Course...

I see...

So then your plan will be to get a tubed pre-amp so you have volume control for phono (or hey; just get the Asthetics Io Signature with a volume control - only about $12,000.00) and then you will plug and unplug cables at the amplifier when you want to switch sources?


Is your concern that a pre-amp that can function as both a volume control and source switch will color the sound too much? Not trying to play devils advocate as much as I'm curious. There are any number of very good pre-amps out there that would negate the need for a volume control at your silver disc source.

Yes, I plan on having a switching device. Kinda like a "Y" cord connection, with the mono block amps at the end with the CD/SACD and phono amp/TT as choices to switch to.

Yes, the sound I've auditioned using the source driving the amplifiers directly was totally un-colored and just beautiful. That's what I want for my CD/SACD source...

I realize when I add phono later, I'll need a phono amp. Yes it will be tubed as well but switched into the path when listening to phono and switched out for CD/SACD listening. If I could get Dave Wright to make a TT with volume control, I'd use that directly to control the amplifiers. Please understand, I really do not want to use a phono pre-amp. because it is just too much color, too much in the path adding things of the music. I'm looking for pure direct as possible source to amp. to speakers for a truly wonderful musical sound. I've auditioned CD/SACD sources this way, but I don't expect to ever see a TT with volume control though I've never looked... Do they even make a TT with volume control? Probably not... Oh well. I hope this gives you a better idea of what I'm looking for in my system. Any thoughts?

 

[twich54]

Robin, I too am in a serious "contemplation" stage right now as where I want my digital end of my sysytem to be headed, and while i am pondering the "universal" player approach this past weekend I happened upon a CD / SACD player that really caught my attention......... Cary's CD303/300. Heard it at a freind of a freinds house driven through CJ gear into a pair of B&W 803D's. What I heard I really liked, that being said I too am seriously considering the Modwright route on a sony or Denon player after my recent talk with Dan Wright. Too many damn options to consider !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Spike]

Yes, I plan on having a switching device. Kinda like a "Y" cord connection, with the mono block amps at the end with the CD/SACD and phono amp/TT as choices to switch to.

Yes, the sound I've auditioned using the source driving the amplifiers directly was totally un-colored and just beautiful. That's what I want for my CD/SACD source...

I realize when I add phono later, I'll need a phono amp. Yes it will be tubed as well but switched into the path when listening to phono and switched out for CD/SACD listening. If I could get Dave Wright to make a TT with volume control, I'd use that directly to control the amplifiers. Please understand, I really do not want to use a phono pre-amp. because it is just too much color, too much in the path adding things of the music. I'm looking for pure direct as possible source to amp. to speakers for a truly wonderful musical sound. I've auditioned CD/SACD sources this way, but I don't expect to ever see a TT with volume control though I've never looked... Do they even make a TT with volume control? Probably not... Oh well. I hope this gives you a better idea of what I'm looking for in my system. Any thoughts?

Robin,
Adding TT into the mix in the future just changed the equation quite a bit. In this case, you'll need a good full-fledged pre-amp with phono capabilities. The Cary SLP-98, ModWright SWLP-9.0SE (Note the SWLP designation for phono), SupraTek, Aesthetix full-function pre-amps readily come to mind. I'm sure there are a host of others that I have not mentioned. The rationale for having a centralized full-fledged preamp is that you'll need a good high-quality box serving as source selector and volume control for both digital and phone sources. Having an Y-connector in the middle of the signal chain is NOT the answer. The quality of the Y-connector is questionable, plus that you'll need to duplicate the analogue output stage: 1 for the digital source (built-in via ModWright mods on the SACD player) and 1 to accomodate for the phono source. I just feel that it's much better to go with a well-designed centralized preamp to handle source switching, pre-amplification for the phone stage, and analogue buffering (volume control) to drive the amplifiers. Check with Dennis Had of Cary Audio and/or Dan Wright of ModWright to see which solution best fit your needs. Assuming that you're gonna have a full-fledged pre-amp, I would skim down on the mods to the source unit to save $$$ and possibly go with the new APL Sony where the bulk of the mods reside in the digital circuitry and power supplies rather than analogue stage which will be redundant when using a pre-amp. Just my 2-cents...

Spike

 

[Robin]

Pre-Amp...

Spike,

I see what your saying and you make excellent intelligent points regarding the pre-amp but I am not convinced that a "Y" switch would be detrimental to the signal. I would need strong evidence that the "Y" is proven to down grade the signal because...? However, this is a good question for Dan Wright or Dennis Had along with some others I have i. e.,

1). Would a simple "Y" type of switch be detrimental to the signal? If so exactly how? or why?
2). Would it be possible to have a simple two channel (Phono / CD) tube pre-amp like Cary or Conrad Johnson etc., which would not color or flavor the signal at all?
3). Is it possible or advisible to Modwright - add volume control to a TT for direct control of two amps without a pre-amp?

Communicate directly with Dan Wright or Dennis Had about this is a great idea. I will concider asking the above questions prior to adding a TT.

Thank you again Spike for your advise, ideas and recommendations. I really appreciate it.

Any more thoughts?

 

[MiTT]

Robin,
Adding TT into the mix in the future just changed the equation quite a bit. In this case, you'll need a good full-fledged pre-amp with phono capabilities. The Cary SLP-98, ModWright SWLP-9.0SE (Note the SWLP designation for phono), SupraTek, Aesthetix full-function pre-amps readily come to mind. I'm sure there are a host of others that I have not mentioned. The rationale for having a centralized full-fledged preamp is that you'll need a good high-quality box serving as source selector and volume control for both digital and phone sources. Having an Y-connector in the middle of the signal chain is NOT the answer. The quality of the Y-connector is questionable, plus that you'll need to duplicate the analogue output stage: 1 for the digital source (built-in via ModWright mods on the SACD player) and 1 to accomodate for the phono source. I just feel that it's much better to go with a well-designed centralized preamp to handle source switching, pre-amplification for the phone stage, and analogue buffering (volume control) to drive the amplifiers. Check with Dennis Had of Cary Audio and/or Dan Wright of ModWright to see which solution best fit your needs. Assuming that you're gonna have a full-fledged pre-amp, I would skim down on the mods to the source unit to save $$$ and possibly go with the new APL Sony where the bulk of the mods reside in the digital circuitry and power supplies rather than analogue stage which will be redundant when using a pre-amp. Just my 2-cents...

Spike

Yes, I agree with Spike, and this was where I was heading with my questioning as well. A GOOD pre-amp will always sound better than a "Y" connector or switch box, and give you the flexibility to control switching and volume functions. Another option would be to use a passive linestage; there are a number of them out there. The latter option would still require some sort of phono stage between the turntable and passive linestage.

A really good pre-amp is not an evil thing. Some would argue that direct driving a digital source with a volume control in the digital domain is actually worse sounding (although different sounding) than a good analog volume control.

 

[Robin]

Passive Linestage?

Mitt,

Thank you for your positive response, ideas and suggestions as well...

Please see my new post above (to Spike)....

What is a Passive Linstage? How does it work? Is it an amp or pre-amp or a better switching devise? What would be a good brand to consider for a Passive Linestage?

 

[Spike]

1). Would a simple "Y" type of switch be detrimental to the signal? If so exactly how? or why?

I recall asking Victor Khomenko of BAT this question and he mentioned that you'll lose 6db of signal amplitude for every RCA connection made.

2). Would it be possible to have a simple two channel (Phono / CD) tube pre-amp like Cary or Conrad Johnson etc., which would not color or flavor the signal at all?

Color is a subjective term. For example, Cary SLP-98 actually stands for "Sweet Little Preamp" meaning some coloration is involved Another good example is the ARC preamps which have been called "neutral" by some but "sterile, lifeless" by others. Go figure. Only you can determine what is colored or neutral.

3). Is it possible or advisible to Modwright - add volume control to a TT for direct control of two amps without a pre-amp?

There's been metion of a volume control for the ModWright phono-stage on the ModWright forum. Here's a quote from Dan Wright...

So far, the design will be as follows:

SE input and output - not balanced.
MM and MC - switchable.
MC gain = 65dB - 70dB is my goal.
Design will be hybrid SS and tube.
Cartridge loading will be possible.
Step-up transformers will not be used for MC gain.

Unit will be available as an upgrade option for the 9.0SE and as a standalone unit. Standalone unit may have volume control and one extra input for vinyl purists who want to run direct to their amp.

Spike

 

[Robin]

Excellent Response!

Spike,

Fantastic! You ansewered all of my questions in one post. Thanks! Now I have much to consider... OK I'm convinced, I see the light, I do not want to "Y" switch. But now I have a lot to concider i. e., Dan Wright's - Modwright 9.0SE Standalone TT with volume control with extra out put - directly to my amplifiers... Or a Cary SLP-98 pre-amp.

Thanks again...

 

[Spike]

OK I'm convinced, I see the light, I do not want to "Y" switch. But now I have a lot to concider i. e., Dan Wright's - Modwright 9.0SE Standalone TT with volume control with extra out put - directly to my amplifiers...

Robin,
I don't think the ModWright phono standalone unit will work in this case due to the extremely high gain needed for phono. This high-gain factor will not work well with your digital source going into the extra input. That said, I think that the full-fledged ModWright SWLP-9.0 pre-amp (with phono capability) will work well in your system. Same with the Cary SLP-98 or the other pre-amps that I've mentioned in my previous post.
If you do decide to work with Dan Wright, you should tell him about your plan to combine high-quality digital and phono sources to a centralized pre-amp and then inquire about what kinds of mods/upgrades he would recommend for the digital source. You'd want to avoid having duplicating circuitry in the player AND the preamp. In the past, Dan and I have talked about low-level signal output transformers in the analog section to drive the (interconnect) cables. Maybe these transformers will work in this case (for example the output stage of a Denon 2910 universal player), replacing the stock active analogue stage. What I'm thinking to achieve here is to remove active components in order to get a "direct" connection between the DAC chip of the player to the input of the pre-amp, keeping the signal chain as short as possible. If you want to get more info on this type of passive output stage, kindly cruise over to Reference Audio Mods and read up on their Coupling/Signal Transformers information page.

Good Luck
Spike

 

[Robin]

Terrific Advise...

Spike,

Thanks for all of your help with my vexing problems. Your assistance was just what I needed and more. I've got a better plan of action now and that's wonderful.