I'm Gettin' Itchy for a 11A!

[ttocs]

I'm thinking that upgrading from Vista to the Impression 11A is gonna be happening soon. From what I've been learning about it, it's a huge jump in performance from the Vista. The main consideration I've been wrestling with for a few months has been what the 'proper' sized new speaker should be between the 11A and 13A ??

My house is small and the room is the front 2/5 in an open concept combo. It's about 5,000 cubic feet with vaulted ceilings which peak at 10-1/2' high, so lots of air volume.

After reading posts here and speaking with Martin Logan, the 13A would be more than enough, and the 11A is probably enough of a speaker for the space. With the cost difference being what it is, it would be another year before I could swing the extra $5k, and I'm not sure I want to spend the extra for what might only be a 5-10% gain in what I might be able to hear or perceive. So I'm 98% sure I want the 11A.

My question for all you 11A owners is: Do you feel the 11A speakers are the right size for your space? And the follow up is, how many cubic feet is your listening space?

 

[sleepysurf]

The 13A's could provide a slightly wider sweet spot, but the 11A's should give you the same overall tonality. Both panels cross over at 300 Hz. You'd be giving up a little of the lowest bass with the 11A, but I see you've already got a pair of subs, so that won't be an issue.

 

[twich54]

what are your room dimensions ?

 

[ttocs]

sleepysurf, so this is one of the things I've wanted to know - what the extra inches of width provide. That's good to know, thanks!

twitch, this is the floor plan showing speakers, screen, couch and couple chairs. I figure the average ceiling height is 9'. The hall that goes to the left of the beam has only 8' ceiling. The area at the bottom right is an open stairway to basement.


Since I've had this arrangement, after removing a couple walls, there hasn't been a problem with extreme bass boom or nulls, it's been pretty sweet. The ceiling above the speakers increases in height up to the beam, kinda like a theater. The subs, not shown, are closer to the front wall at about the left and right edges of the screen. Currently I'm not using any room correction - other than entering dimension and spl levels into preamp, there hasn't been a great need and I just haven't taken the time to do it, still working on other things.

 

[twich54]

given your room depth constraints I suspect you are doing the best you can by only bringing them out 42", not bad, another foot or two would have been ideal. Given your close seating distance from the 11A's I'd think about possibly reducing their separation distance by one to two feet, unless you like a lot of toe-in.

 

[ttocs]

In the previous floor plan I had the panels 5' from the wall. With the current plan I really tried to leave them closer to the wall, for more pleasing aesthetics, but just couldn't. This is where they sound great and are about at 90% of the potentially perfect distance. This means, it's really, really, difficult to tell the difference.

The wide spread is such that, given the width of the PJ screen, it allows for absorption panels flanking the screen to totally cover the wall reflection of the speakers. Frankly, this has a very pronounced effect, one that most people would be able to discern.

Also, the current toe and speaker/seating arrangement has made the soundstage pretty much unbreakable. It's really been very forgiving to listen to with regard to head movement, sweet spot, etc. More so for movies, but even with 2 channel, yes the center moves with your head location, but the general soundstage effect still lives on.

So the question remains, how does room volume - cubic feet of air - affect the sound with regards to panel size?

 

[Hear Here]

sleepysurf, so this is one of the things I've wanted to know - what the extra inches of width provide. That's good to know, thanks!

twitch, this is the floor plan showing speakers, screen, couch and couple chairs. I figure the average ceiling height is 9'. The hall that goes to the left of the beam has only 8' ceiling. The area at the bottom right is an open stairway to basement.


Since I've had this arrangement, after removing a couple walls, there hasn't been a problem with extreme bass boom or nulls, it's been pretty sweet. The ceiling above the speakers increases in height up to the beam, kinda like a theater. The subs, not shown, are closer to the front wall at about the left and right edges of the screen. Currently I'm not using any room correction - other than entering dimension and spl levels into preamp, there hasn't been a great need and I just haven't taken the time to do it, still working on other things.

For what it's worth, my room is about 975 sq feet but ceilings are only 7'7 so quite a lot more volume than yours. I went for 13As. Like yours, mine are 10 ft apart, but my listening position is 14 ft from the speakers and the distance behind my speakers is 12-15 ft.

With your closer speaker to listening position distance, my guess is that the 11As would probably be fine. Having said that, upgrading speakers in future is costly, so something to be said for getting the speakers you really want, rather than the ones you can afford - even if this means a short delay! Peter

 

[GW1800]

I'm thinking that upgrading from Vista to the Impression 11A is gonna be happening soon. From what I've been learning about it, it's a huge jump in performance from the Vista. The main consideration I've been wrestling with for a few months has been what the 'proper' sized new speaker should be between the 11A and 13A ??

My house is small and the room is the front 2/5 in an open concept combo. It's about 5,000 cubic feet with vaulted ceilings which peak at 10-1/2' high, so lots of air volume.

After reading posts here and speaking with Martin Logan, the 13A would be more than enough, and the 11A is probably enough of a speaker for the space. With the cost difference being what it is, it would be another year before I could swing the extra $5k, and I'm not sure I want to spend the extra for what might only be a 5-10% gain in what I might be able to hear or perceive. So I'm 98% sure I want the 11A.

My question for all you 11A owners is: Do you feel the 11A speakers are the right size for your space? And the follow up is, how many cubic feet is your listening space?

I have a slightly different take on the speaker selection and tend to look out further in time. I agree the 11A probably is a good fit for today budget wise however I would argue that moving up to the 13A is much more then a 5-10% gain - as you will gain in the bass section and panel width both. Also I tend to get the best speaker for the future not immediate needs because to buy a 13A in 2-5 years from now will cost a lot more then today plus the hassle to do so. Selecting the speaker is critical - a system build around component don't short yourself for the year you will have to wait you will thank yourself down the way for being so smart. A few years from now who knows you may move or find a different location within your present one also then what?

 

[ttocs]

For what it's worth, my room is about 975 sq feet but ceilings are only 7'7 so quite a lot more volume than yours. I went for 13As. Like yours, mine are 10 ft apart, but my listening position is 14 ft from the speakers and the distance behind my speakers is 12-15 ft.

With your closer speaker to listening position distance, my guess is that the 11As would probably be fine. Having said that, upgrading speakers in future is costly, so something to be said for getting the speakers you really want, rather than the ones you can afford - even if this means a short delay! Peter

Thanks for your input. You've got a couple thousand cubic feet more than I do. Did you upsize from a smaller panel in the same space? and if so, what differences have you noticed as they relate to speaker size?

 

[Hear Here]

Thanks for your input. You've got a couple thousand cubic feet more than I do. Did you upsize from a smaller panel in the same space? and if so, what differences have you noticed as they relate to speaker size?

No this is effectively my first panel speaker, though I had Quad 2905s for a few months last year.

For 18 years I've been enjoying Avantgarde Uno speakers, but they never sounded quite as good in my present listening room as in my one in London. Quad was introduced to me by a friend - met through another forum. I was sufficiently impressed to buy a pair, but sold them soon after because they were visually unacceptable in my room.

Hence the narrow semi-transparent MLs. I'm holding fire regarding the MLs as I certainly don't seem to be getting the performance I was expecting - yet!

 

[ttocs]

I have a slightly different take on the speaker selection and tend to look out further in time. I agree the 11A probably is a good fit for today budget wise however I would argue that moving up to the 13A is much more then a 5-10% gain - as you will gain in the bass section and panel width both. Also I tend to get the best speaker for the future not immediate needs because to buy a 13A in 2-5 years from now will cost a lot more then today plus the hassle to do so. Selecting the speaker is critical - a system build around component don't short yourself for the year you will have to wait you will thank yourself down the way for being so smart. A few years from now who knows you may move or find a different location within your present one also then what?

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestion. The % difference is what was described to me in a conversation with someone from ML. He said that given my listening environment that the 11A would get me about 95% there. I figured it more conservatively so I added in the 10% part. He was indicating that with the 13A there would be more of an improvement in the bass than what would be noticed in the different panel size. In other words, just comparing the panels, it would be a subtle difference that not everyone would notice, but there is a definite difference in the bass.

Within 5 years I'll be downsizing my housing needs, if I don't buy some property from Joe Namath in Tennessee, so thinking about the future means that I won't want something that'll be too big either.

Frankly, when I bought the Vistas I kinda thought that they would be the last speakers I'd buy. I never figured on upgrading so much within the eight years since that I'd be shopping for speakers again! So, as Navin Johnson famously said in the movie The Jerk, "and I don't need anything else . . . . . I need this . . . . and this chair, and I don't need ANYTHING else . . . . " Written of course by the same man who gave us the punch line "Maybe it's the needle" (after having upgraded his hifi ultimately to a milliphonic system) on his first comedy album. (Steve Martin (for those too young to know good stuff))

 

[codesx100]

Why not go with the 11A and upgrade the center to a focus or illusion?

 

[ttocs]

Why not go with the 11A and upgrade the center to a focus or illusion?

I'd love to get the Illusion! Looks like it's a great center speaker. But any notion of upgrading my current center speaker will need to come after the mains are decided on. But you are spot on with suggesting the Illisuion! I can't think of a better choice.

I'm mostly leaning toward the 11A, but definitely not settled in my mind yet. I keep thinking, but have no experience to back it up, that even really large panels probably sound great even at very low volume levels. My justification for thinking this is that the more surface area the speaker has - larger panel size, the more easily the little details come through, read: better dynamics. Am I wrong to believe this to be true?

 

[codesx100]

I am not sure a larger panel will mean better dynamics. I still think that it depends on what your putting into them. Which means your source of sound.

Let's take a small example. I'm sure a set of 11As set up with tube or good SS amp, with a good pre-amp and a decent table would give you better dynamics vs a 13a with a budget amp, etc, etc. And then vice versa the 13a w/ high components would then destroy the 11a with budget equipment.

This isnt saying upgrading your speakers won't be an improvement but your entire system is only as good as the weakest point. Which means when you decide on the 11a or the 13a how much more of the system are you upgrading to utilize the headroom you gained on the speaker.

If you ask the question which is going to sound better straight up then it's the 13a. But if you ask what system is going to sound better with better dynamics, then you need to look at the whole picture.

Hopefully I didnt make this too confusing, but it's my two cents. Take what I've said with a grain of salt, I've only been in hifi for a few years after I finished my electrical engineering degree, I am not an expert.

 

[ttocs]

After considering all the helpful comments from you all, and speaking with a someone from Martin Logan a couple weeks ago as well as meeting with a Martin Logan rep today at a customer appreciation event, I've come to a decision. I'm planning on getting the 11A's.

Speaking with a close friend today, we discussed the many improvements the current crop of ML's have over my old Vistas. With this in mind it's easy to make the case that the Impression ESL 11A speakers represents a vast improvement from what I'm used to. However, comparing the 11A to the 13A my friend came up with a question: Can you convince me that the 13A is as much an improvement over the 11A as the 11A is vs the Vista? My answer was no. Obviously moving up the line means incremental improvements, which is great but comes at a cost. I'm willing to get what I think is a great speaker at a price I can easily justify to myself. Going beyond that with what I know at this time would require an argument stronger than I, as yet, have come across.

I'm very content with this decision. Thank you all for your assistance.

 

[twich54]

Congrats, we look forward to seeing a pic or two of your new set up !

 

[ttocs]

Ok, so, um, here's what happened.

I was all set to get the 11A's, 100%, no doubt, then I heard the 13A's! After the first drum beat I was hooked. The difference in the bass, which I already knew was better, was remarkably great! And as many of you have suggested the sweet spot is bigger, but not just bigger, the "edge" of the sweet spot rolls off gently which creates a sense of an even bigger spot. The sweet spot sealed the deal.

I simply couldn't pass up getting 13A's. They come on Monday.

 

[mac_tweety]

Ok, so, um, here's what happened.

I was all set to get the 11A's, 100%, no doubt, then I heard the 13A's! After the first drum beat I was hooked. The difference in the bass, which I already knew was better, was remarkably great! And as many of you have suggested the sweet spot is bigger, but not just bigger, the "edge" of the sweet spot rolls off gently which creates a sense of an even bigger spot. The sweet spot sealed the deal.

I simply couldn't pass up getting 13A's. They come on Monday.

Will you get the one you listen to?
My experience is to take the demonstration model so as not to be disappointed afterwards.
At home, the speakers certainly sound different, but then I know it's my room and not the speaker itself.

 

[sleepysurf]

Will you get the one you listen to?
My experience is to take the demonstration model so as not to be disappointed afterwards.
At home, the speakers certainly sound different, but then I know it's my room and not the speaker itself.

I believe ML tests every single speaker before it leaves the factory, ensuring the stat panel performance (and woofers) are in spec. After appropriate break-in time (mainly for the woofers), they should all perform and sound identical. Any deficiencies are more likely due to placement/room acoustics, and upstream components/cables.

 

[ttocs]

^^^^^
And, I believe, during the testing they make sure that pairs of speakers are in spec with each other.