High End Harshness

[MickeyVee]

Hi All,
I'm pretty much at wits end trying to correct some high end harshness in my system for 2 channel listening. Here's the scenario.. some of favorite CD's are Dire Straits ~ Love Over Gold (ReMaster), Steely Dan ~ Aja (ReMaster), Moodswings ~ Moodfood, Enigma ~ LSD (ReMix Collection)
For CD listening, I pretty much run in 'ByPass' mode..

The high end seems pretty harsh, especially with guitar plucks (Dire Straits/Private Investigations) and some piano (Moodswings/Hair Piano)
The source seems to be irrelevant.. Marantz 7001, Rega Apollo, streaming Apple Lossless through iTunes give me the same result.
Interconnects don't make much of a difference either.. went from Monster THX to Signal Cable (system is pretty much all Signal Cable) and have used Nordost Solar Wind as well as Transparent
Imaging is incredible.. listening to Moodswings, I'm enveloped in the music and it seems to surround me (even had to disconnect the centre and rears to prove to some friends that they were off). Instrument placing and vocals are also very good. Sound quality from video, DVD or BluRay, is also amazing.

I have zero flexibility on placement as the room is pretty full.. hardwood floors and lots of wood trim.. room is about 10x15 and the Clarity's are exactly 2 feet from the wall, 6' apart and about 6.5' to listening position.

The only thing that I can think of at this point is some sort of treatment behind the Clarity's but even then, I'm pretty limited. Due to the configuration of the room, I could probably put up 18"x36 panels at most.

I really don't have much money to play with right now (unemployed, hence the extra listening time available), maybe about $200. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks in advance for your help! Mark

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Mickey,

I've tried a few of the ATS Acoustic panels behind my Summits and am very pleased with the results. Like your room, mine is somewhat on the "live" side of the equation. Wood floors, large windows, etc.

My understanding is that they use mineral wool, which seems to be the industry standard for acoustical panels.

Here's the great part.

1) Cheap. $25 for a 2' X 2' X 2" panel.

2) Many fabric colors to choose from.

3) 30 day money back on all their standard sizes.

4) Very positive experience. Great customer service.

Google for more information. Highly recommended.

GG

PS: In addition to classical and jazz, I am also a big fan of Dire Straits, Pink Floyd, etc.

 

[twich54]

I have zero flexibility on placement

Given your statement above you have limited choices.......

acoustically treat your room, as you yourself mentioned, to treat excessive high freq reflections, etc. otherwise listen through headphones !

 

[DTB300]

What has changed since you posted this back in March when you purchased your Rega?

"Initial impressions:
- Very smooth and detailed. I'm hearing detail that I have never heard before. I couldn't get enough. I had CD lined up for the rest of the day and heard something new in most of them. Simply amazing. Imaging is about the same as the Marantz which I was already pleased with.
- Wow! Didn't know my Clarity's could do that. Bass extension is phenomenal. I was listening in bypass mode and had to double check that my sub woofer was off. Even after 3 years, I have never heard such tight, clean, fast and responsive bass as I have in the last two days.
- Did I say smooth an musical? I never grew fatigued listening to the Rega. Usually, after a couple of hours, I had to stop listening. I probably listed for 8 hours yesterday and four more today.

 

[MickeyVee]

Thanks Gordon.. I'll look them up, definitely in my snack bracket..
OT.. love to use Pink Floyd for demo.. The Wall or the 25th Ann Edition of Dark Side of the Moon.. Patricia Barber original master on SACD for those otherwise inclinded..

DTB.. what has changed is the level I'm play at; with no one home, I'm pushing the system at higher SPLs.. not enough for the fan to kick in or to distort, but in the 70's versus the 50's or low 60's that I normally play at..
The future does hold more power.. maybe the Sunfire TGR-401 or the Rotel RSX-1560 which would both drive the Clarity's better than what I have now.

 

[MickeyVee]

also changed TV.. went from a 32" Sony XBR to a 46" Sharp D94SE between the Clarity's.. maybe eve greater room reflection?

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Hello MickeyVee,

Sorry to hear about some of the problems you are having. I would second Gordon's advice and suggest you try some acoustical panels. ATS is a very economical choice with a great product. You may however want to try and place something in the areas where the panels would go so that you can get an idea of what some absorbtion would do for your system. Pillows etc. might be a place to start with your comparisons. Of course those will only give you an idea, but if you notice an improvement then at least that will give you a good indicator of what acoustic panels would do. Also, if you have hardwood floors in between you and your speakers then you may want to consider a nice rug there for absorbing some of the floor/ceiling reflections. Hope some of this will help.

 

[tsmooth]

gordonmenninger and I both have threads in the Room Acoustics and ML placement forum of the site about DIY panel projects. Great results for very little coin.

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6758

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7934

 

[twich54]

also changed TV.. went from a 32" Sony XBR to a 46" Sharp D94SE between the Clarity's.. maybe eve greater room reflection?

definetly didn't help your imaging any, which could have translating into further hf anomolies.

just for 'chitts and giggles' throw a heavy quilt or something over your Tv and see what (if anything) it does.

 

[aliveatfive]

This runs counter to many opinions on this forum, BUT - if you feed MLs anything less than high quality power (unfortunately this means expensive) and preamplification, you will not be hearing their true capabilities. I experienced what you're dealing with and my solution was to replace my preamp. First try was with a BAT VK51se and later with an ARC Ref3. Both improved the upper mid-range and top end considerably.

 

[MickeyVee]

Thanks all for your help and suggestions..
I did experiment with pillows and it certainly helped.. across the spectrum.. so investigation, research and reading into acoustic treatments is underway..
Even threw a heavy blanket over the TV and there was a small noticeable difference.. good thing no one was home
Thanks for the links.. I'll go through them.. also been investigating 'Get Better Sound' by Jim Smith.. that's probably on my list too..
As far as the hardware goes.. I know that it is a limiting factor but upgrading is not a solution for me at this point. In the long term, yes, but the focus will be on HT with good 2 chan audio a very close secondary consideration. Would like the best of both worlds.. but thats another story..
Thanks again, M

 

[twich54]

but the focus will be on HT with good 2 chan audio a very close secondary consideration. Would like the best of both worlds..

it is my belief that one concentrates on the two channel first and let the HT follow. While I have been in some systems that trully do a remarkable job with both, far and away the majority of what are considered 'Kick ass HT set-up's' are lacking for serious two channel, IMO.

 

[MiTT]

it is my belief that one concentrates on the two channel first and let the HT follow. While I have been in some systems that trully do a remarkable job with both, far and away the majority of what are considered 'Kick ass HT set-up's' are lacking for serious two channel, IMO.

That's been my experience too Dave, and inversely, those systems that sound killer on two channel almost always sound killer when asked to support milti-channel.

 

[MickeyVee]

OK, you've got me scratching my head on that one.. go two channel first??

If I had the funds, I'd probably do an Anthem Statement 2 with a Sunfire 5x200 or 400 watt amp (just examples).. given what I've read, I can do 2 channel, bypass all the processing and have the benefits of an excellent pre and power amp combo. Assuming that I have good source components

OTOH if I do a Krell Evolution or Sim Audio 2 channel setup (again, just examples), I'd have to spend another fortune building and integrating a decent processor and an additional 3 channel amp on top of that to go multi channel.

Going as good as I can gets (translated, afford) with 2 channel source makes sense.
Going as good as I can afford for BluRay (the new Oppo looks promising) makes sense.

Given that, my upgrade path would probably be..

1. MultiChannel Amp.. Sunfire 5x200 or the new Rotel Class D (no flames please)
2. Oppo BluRay
3. Decent MultiChannel Processor (again, the new Rotel & Sunfire look good, for now)
4. Vantage or Spires
5. Matching center channel, sub
6. Power
7. cabling
room treatments as I go along

more realistically, this would be my path..
new Sunfire or Rotel AVR (class D)
keep the Clarity's, Vignette & M1's, add a ML Grotto i
Oppo BluRay
room treatments

In Canadian $, my ultimate system, even pushing some financial limits would be in the range of $15-$20K.. at $2~$3K per year tops, it's still a long road..

 

[Dreamer]

MickeyVee,

As much of an advocate as I am for room treatments, I think I would stand on "aliveatfive" side of this discussion. I think your Rotel AVR is just running out of steam. That is a receiver, and it's not really designed to drive ultra-difficult loads at high levels. You say the sound is bad in the high-frequencies--that is where the ohm-load is toughest--at 20khz, the load can drop to 1 ohm or lower, and at high volumes, that can be enough to make the wheels fall off even the best small amp.

My Carver M-500t is rated at 251wpc at 8ohms, and it drives my Sequels very sweetly at "polite" volumes, but when I crank it, the wheels totally fall off--ESPECIALLY in the upper mids and treble. It gets screechy, grainy, and just sounds like crap. However, my little Scenarios, which present a much more stable load than the older "original" Sequels (and have a smaller woofer so they don't draw nearly as much current) can be driven really loud with the M-500t. I haven't heard them get allnasty yet, and I've had the volume up to "hear it out in the yard" volumes a few times in the last few weeks...

Room treatments are VERY important, but if your amp is going into high-freq distortion because it just doesn't have the juice to feed your speakers (and I have yet to meet an AV Receiver that does!) then all the room treatments in the world are not going to help...

You, my friend, need an amp with some serious cojones, if you plan to drive those ML's at high volumes.

Get thee to a Sunfire...

 

[MickeyVee]

Thanks Dreamer.. that seems to be the case.. at 'polite volumes' it's great.. it is running out of steam at the higher volumes.. when the time is right, I think that I'll ad an external amp (I do like the Sunfire's) and use the pre-outs and then go go for a decent processor.. in the mean time, I'll be looking at DIY or inexpensive treatments.. one step at a time.
Thanks all for your help!

 

[DrJRapp]

I'm curious about tw things...first, what is the wall like behind your seating area. Secondly, what happens at higher voume levels to the mids...do they get harsh also?

I have a room that is very similar to yours and it sounds fine at lower and middle volumes. At higher volumes it gets harsh as the room start to "ring" with sound reflected off my back wall which contains a lot of glass. My solution was heavy window treatments. It's not a power issue in my case since I have over 400 wpc on tap.

 

[MickeyVee]

DrJRapp.. pictures would do it better justice.. I think is a combo of treatments and power for me. Only consideration is that I don't plan to spent more than another year or two here. I'm renting half the house and it's almost 100 years old. It's a tough room as you can tell by the pics..

 

[twich54]

Mick, you've got alot of refective surfaces (including the glass coffee table in front of you) combined with a 'nearfield' listening enviroment. Lowering the dbl level to previous volumes will help, again less 'strain' on your receivers amplifier section. Treating your reflective points as best as can be would help as well.

I know you said the blanket over the TV helped somewhat....try that again with lower volume and remove the coffee table from the room. While not permanent it may well show you the areas needing the most attention.