Fixing "hole in the middle" imaging

[C.A.P]

seems that when companies re release cds they add to much compresion to make the average stereo sound good with lots of thick bass and spacious sound, when in reality , it is a blurry muddy mess for a high end system like the Logans that throw a stage as deep and wide as any on the market , I find my self listining to alot of old recordings from the 70,s they may lack a little in dynamics but they seem a little easier on the ears

 

[beanbag]

Thanks for all the replies, guys.
To answer some of your suggestions:

I don't have my camera right now but I will try to describe the room. It is 12x14, with the speakers on the short wall. On one of the long walls, there is a narrow opening to a small kitchen. The whole setup is moved slightly off to the side, with the speakers about 3' from the front wall, and me 4' from the other wall. One speaker is about 3' from the side wall.

The phase is correct

I played around with toe a little bit, but it didn't seem to make much difference. I am using the method mentioned here, where you shine a light at the speaker and see a line about 2" from the inner edge.

I also tried moving the speaker in and out from the wall. I noticed that if it is closer to the wall, I seem to lose sense of depth. I have not tried moving the speakers closer together, coz they are already closer to each other than to me.

Moving my head closer and further from the speakers didn't seem to make much difference either.

I read that one thing that can cause this problem of too much sound seemingly coming from the speakers has to do with stray reflections coming from other parts of the room. Hence why I am playing around with foam placement.

 

[kach22i]

where you shine a light at the speaker and see a line about 2" from the inner edge.

My light line is about 3 inches (or more) from the inner edge. You have to keep adjusting toe-in until the image fills in. This will be different for eveyone because everyone has a different room and a different set of ears.

When I was getting my Nordost speaker wires replaced, I put in some cheep 50 cents a foot stuff in the path for a few weeks. The sound was very narrow and never really left the speakers.

When was the last time you cleaned all your connections? Every little bit helps.

 

[C.A.P]

seems I have about the exact set up as you do from the room stand point , mine is 12x16 with a 3/4 wall along one of the long walls that opens up to a kitchen , this opening will play havoc to your ears as it is not as reflective as a solid wall, I have moved my speakers 10000000000000.............times and seems to me that the best width and depth is a old addage I read along time ago, the rule of 3rds to start out with , then adjust slightly to your ears ......along my 12 ft wall mine are are 43in to center panel from the wall 60 in center to center panel and 43 to the wall from the center of the panel ... the depth from the wall is subjective in your listing and will have a greater effect on bass, mine are 42in and 44in on the outside with the chair at about 11 ft ear level ........let me know how your acustic foam turns out I might try some my self

 

[Robin]

Open spaces are very difficult...

seems I have about the exact set up as you do from the room stand point , mine is 12x16 with a 3/4 wall along one of the long walls that opens up to a kitchen , this opening will play havoc to your ears as it is not as reflective as a solid wall, I have moved my speakers 10000000000000.............times and seems to me that the best width and depth is a old addage I read along time ago, the rule of 3rds to start out with , then adjust slightly to your ears ......along my 12 ft wall mine are are 43in to center panel from the wall 60 in center to center panel and 43 to the wall from the center of the panel ... the depth from the wall is subjective in your listing and will have a greater effect on bass, mine are 42in and 44in on the outside with the chair at about 11 ft ear level ........let me know how your acustic foam turns out I might try some my self

C.A.P. and beanbag,

I totally understand, and can relate with what, "open spaces", in a listening area (HT) can do... Open spaces can reek havoc... They are like huge holes in your system...

About three years ago, I had my system in our family room (next to the kitchen), the listing area was a space, which was about the dimentions your've stated above. I was dealing with three opening into our family room (HT), with a fireplace, in the room too. The family room (HT)was just impossible to image, the room's acustics were just too challenging, the sound was as you have discribed above... huge holes in the imaging

Finially, I gave up, we moved the HT (everything) into, one of our, four small bedrooms. The improvement was immediate and impressive. ML electrostatic speakers bipolar construction, seems to require the use of, all of the wall surfaces (floors and cieling too) in the HT room, for sonic imaging. I found, it to be especially true for the subwoofer, as the lower, slower bass waves need the walls, floor and cieling to make a greater impact, as you know. However, I did have to comprise in losing square footage, of my HT room, but I think, it was well worth it, as the sound is contained and I can control the sonic imaging precisely. Additionally, I did have to give up any thought of having my, Ascent i's, 3-4 feet, away from the wall though. I think of the "HT Room", is like another huge (expensive) very important piece of audio equipment. So vital and important now, that I just could not imagine my system without my, "Deticated HT Room". IMHO, if it is possible, I would recommend a deticated HT room, as a possible solution, if not now, then someday.

I'm very happy with my 'deticated HT room', even as small as it is, it has fantastic acusitics and sonic imaging.

Cheers

-Robin

 

[C.A.P]

I agree , the room is the single most important factor in the whole picture, especially with Logans that reflect so much and depend on that reflection to sound thier best throughout the audio spectrum


let me know what you come up with on the sound panels!

 

[beanbag]

CAP:

The main thing I noticed with the foam is that wherever you place them on the wall behind the speakers, the sense of depth improves. I also have foam on the first reflection points on the sides of the room, but I don't know if they did anything. This weekend, my brother and I built some big bass traps. I don't know how much they help until I measure the room.

Right now, I think I have too much foam and it seems like the high's have been muted a bit. It seems like the speakers have lost some of their characteristic "sparkle". However, maybe that sparkle was previously due to the ML's spraying sound out the back and bouncing all over the room, creating more "ambience". This ambience helps on recordings of smaller things coz it gives the impression that the room is filling with sounds. But now a lot of that "echo" has been removed. I guess the sound is more "dry" now. However, it seems to sound better on orchestral recordings where the instruments are further back, and you can "feel" the echo and reverberance of the concert hall. ANyway, I just made that up right now.

I either need to remove some foam or maybe add some diffusors.

 

[kach22i]

CAP:I guess the sound is more "dry" now.

Should go well with a Shiraz wine (also dry).

Had some this weekend.......pretty good.