Fellas... you guys think we're in a recession?

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Haha, wow. People certainly get fired up about this stuff.

I work for a bank as a financial analyst, and from all I can tell, there certainly already has been significant recoil from the mortgage mess, but much of that was absorbed in the last 2 quarters of the prior year. The credit default rates, while higher than average, are not apocalyptic by any means, and the majority of those defaults are not the fault of corporations, but rather of people making poor financial decisions. Many people in high rate ARMs are able to refinance now at a much lower rate, due to the lowered interest rates the fed has enacted...making those houses once again affordable where they previously were not. As an economic machine, I don't think there's any reason we'd need to enter anything worse than a very mild recession...but there is the intangible effect of psychology on markets. The capital markets rely on demand and estimation of future value, and if everyone thinks there is a bleak outlook, and thus reduced future value on securities, the prices will fall, and that alone will contribute to a recession (reduced investment capital with lower share prices)...and that can be a spiraling effect.


The important thing to note, when considering questions like this, is to understand that you're part of a 400 million person country, and that while your own situation (or that of your town/city/state/region) may be bleak, that isn't necessarily representative of the country as a whole.

My personal opinion of the media...whatever the bias...is that it's a business based on creating interest, not on presenting an accurate representation of the world we live in, thus we get a skewed perspective of the volume of events. Reading a newspaper on any given day, we'd think we're damn near approaching the end of the world, with all the death,destruction, and scandal that gets reported each day. It's really just not that bad. I read the news every day...but sometimes I have to just take a step back and look around...and see that life's actually pretty great. People who try to take the world's problems as read in the newspaper/seen on the news, and project them upon themselves are bound to make themselves unhappy in the process.

As someone who loves civil discussion on pretty much any topic, I can tell you that as soon as someone starts getting hysterical and making personal attacks, that's when the conversation ends. I appreciate Rich making the effort to re-establish the tone of a civil discussion, and hope I kept it in that realm.
 
To answer the original question of whether or not we think we are in a recession?

My answer would be yes. The signs have been around seemingly everywhere and lately [within the last 3 months] it has gotten to the point of leading straight downhill with no uphill signs in sight, unfortunately, from what I've noticed. The tale tell signs are showing up in acquaintances you meet, in the forums, prices for purchases, normal buying patterns and ordering patterns of both corporate and personal entities. It seems as if every time you turn around or overhear a conversation or news report, the same pattern is apparent.

I wish everybody luck and prosperity in the near future.
 
Recession?........... Couldn't tell ya

My personal opinion of the media...whatever the bias...is that it's a business based on creating interest, not on presenting an accurate representation of the world we live in, thus we get a skewed perspective of the volume of events. Reading a newspaper on any given day, we'd think we're damn near approaching the end of the world, with all the death,destruction, and scandal that gets reported each day. It's really just not that bad. I read the news every day...but sometimes I have to just take a step back and look around...and see that life's actually pretty great. People who try to take the world's problems as read in the newspaper/seen on the news, and project them upon themselves are bound to make themselves unhappy in the process.

Well said IWalker, You are certainly one of the people out of the 400 million that could have a informed opinion on this HOT topic. The media would have us all hunkering down, gloom and doom, life is over sort of stuff. And while that may keep people "tuned in" to find out when we can we can start living a joyful life again. I think I'll start now.
Doug - out
 
Recession or not ..WTF is the deal with these high fuel costs. Diesel is $4.20 A Gallon . I cant afford to drive , Hell I have to call my bank to see if I can pass someone .
 
you're part of a 400 million person country, and that while your own situation (or that of your town/city/state/region) may be bleak, that isn't necessarily representative of the country as a whole.


Last I looked we were barely above 300 million !! ??

let me guess here.........you're young, probably less than 45, if so, with all due respect , you don't even know what a serious rescession looks like.

With that being said I hope you are right and this, as our great leader says(cough...cough), is but a somewhat minor downturn to what is a fundementally strong foundation. Not my words but rather those of the Clown that lives @ "1600" !!
 
????

Last I looked we were barely above 300 million !! ??

let me guess here.........you're young, probably less than 45, if so, with all due respect , you don't even know what a serious rescession looks like.

With that being said I hope you are right and this, as our great leader says(cough...cough), is but a somewhat minor downturn to what is a fundementally strong foundation. Not my words but rather those of the Clown that lives @ "1600" !!

Not necessary...........Why???

Doug - sadly out
 
Recession or not ..WTF is the deal with these high fuel costs. Diesel is $4.20 A Gallon . I cant afford to drive , Hell I have to call my bank to see if I can pass someone .

Ask Bush. His policy of letting the dollar drop in value vs. other currencies makes our imports cost more. Oil is a major import item and as the dollar drops, oil prices rise. Coincidentally, the big oil companies make record profits off of this rise in oil prices. I'm not saying there is any conspiracy going on here, with Bush's family being in the oil business and all but . . .

On the flip side, tourism to the U.S. is seeing record numbers because it is so cheap for foreigners to come visit us now.
 
Our economy seems to be less driven by building things and providing services and more driven by the ability to manipulate markets.
Correct, this has been a large problem growing in intensity for the last 25 years.

Cap, I love the humor.

Good discussion guys, I've enjoyed reading it.
 
Recession or not ..WTF is the deal with these high fuel costs. Diesel is $4.20 A Gallon . I cant afford to drive , Hell I have to call my bank to see if I can pass someone .

LMFAO! Funniest quote I’ve read on this forum. I agree 100% with you CAP. I have an 82 mile commute one way everyday. And my dumba$$ bought a 3.5 Altima that takes premium fuel at 26 miles to the gallon, "before the gas hikes". You do the math, and then try holding down your lunch. I can’t. Thanks to whomever the culprit may be for these gas hikes.
 
I just returned from a vacation in California, and got some very mixed messages:

There are lots of houses up for sale on 17-mile Drive in Pebble Beach; the gallery in Carmel where I was hoping to see again a sculpture dedicated to Beethoven is no longer in business; the gallery in San Diego where I was hoping to see again paintings I liked a few years ago is no longer in business.

However, I was amazed at the cars around - the latest models of high end Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche, BMW, and Audi were all over the place. I also saw a few Lamborghinis/Maseratis/Bentleys. And I was driving a crappy (new) rental Toyota Camry; it was a gutless wonder with poor ergonomics. My 4-year old Honda Accord is far superior to it.
 
Bernard, welcome home !....now the real question is....did you have a good time ? afterall that's what vacations are all about !

With respect to the topic at hand...yes we are in mighty interesting times, but the media is very good at putting the 'doom & gloom' spin on things as well. Keep in mind 90 plus persent of the folks out there still pay their mortgages on time, so not everything is in foreclosure.

As far as jobs......my best friend is a plumber, got more work than he can shake a stick at...good plumbers ALWAYS have work ! Two other friends own their own automotive repair shops, business is great (people are fixing cars instead of buying new ones). My oldest boy is an engineer in the power / electrical generation industry (as we continue to populate the earth it's a demand that continues to grow as well !).....I could go on and on.

There is no question major sectors of our / world economy are seriously hurting, I hope that we as Nation can recapture some of our industrial might that has been eroding for the past half century.
 
After Bernards post earlier today I went back an re-read this entire thread. Very interesting to see how things have evolved in the 13 months or so since it was originally active. The way things have played out seems much worse that what some suspected, and not nearly as bad as others predicted. Interesting that one of the sources Rich had mentioned (Whacovia) in their 2008 outlook predicted a period of slowed growth, and now they are just plain gone. Overall though, I think Rich did an excellent job of analyzing where we were headed.

Personally, I've seen my home equity account dry up, I've lost about 40% of one of my agressive retirement accounts, but managed to keep more conservative ones level. On the job front I've seen my company go through 3 rounds of layoffs for the first time in their 176 year history. My department has shrunk from 9 a year ago to 5 today.

The good news is that we are VERY busy right now. We can't keep up on new quote activity, we have an $8M backlog and we were actually UP year over year in Q1. One thing we've done is shift priorities and resources on the product development side to take advantage of quick hit small opportunities in the short term and escalate those products that will provide Energy Savings, "Green" thinking and leverage stimulus dollars on the retrofit side. Fortunately we're nimble enough to change as the market shifts.

Here's hoping the trends we're seeing right now extend into other segments that directly effect each of you!
 
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Bernard, welcome home !....now the real question is....did you have a good time ? afterall that's what vacations are all about !
Thanks Dave. Had a wonderful time. In deference to my wife I did not haunt any hi-fi stores, apart from calling up a store in San Diego where years ago I got a great deal on some Gold Aero 7308 tubes. They no longer have them, unfortunately.
 
Here's an interesting thing - after talking to my local Mercedes dealership, word is they are doing OK. Why? Well, they have virtually no second hand stock, because 2nd hand prices have dropped massively. As soon as something comes in, it gets sold. So while margins have dropped, turnover is well up! Their usually full, and massive, forecourt, was less than 50% full when I was there last week. And maybe 25% that was new cars waiting to be delivered/registered - but ultimately new sales are down.
 
Interesting that one of the sources Rich had mentioned (Whacovia) in their 2008 outlook predicted a period of slowed growth, and now they are just plain gone.

Actually, Tim, not quite. I was quoting from a pamphlet issued by the investment arm (Wachovia Securities) which was a separate entity from Wachovia Bank (both were owned by Wachovia Corp.). When Wachovia recently merged with Wells Fargo, the investment arm retained its independence and still exists under the name of Wachovia Securities (albeit as a subsidiary of Wells Fargo). I still have the same financial advisor I have had for ten years and nothing really changed in his office after the merger.

For what its worth, they are currently predicting an economic recovery in the fourth quarter of this year, with a market recovery to precede that by a few months. We have already seen signs of that, with the markets bouncing 20% off their lows in the month of March. Unemployment is a lagging indicator and will probably continue to be bad most of this year. But companies will have better numbers to compare to as the year goes on and the downsizing will have a positive effect on balance sheets, so the stage should be set for a few years of solid growth after this year.
 
We seem to be in the very beginnings of a recovery. The equity markets reached a low in March, and have since come up over 40% off that low. The markets try to predict the overall economy and tend to foreshadow about six months out, so it is no big surprise that almost five months after the low we are seeing the signs of an impending recovery.

We still have some issues to work out. I don't think anyone thinks things are going to go gangbusters from here. But I would expect a continuing slow, steady economic recovery. The key issue going forward, in my mind, is whether and how well the fed deals with inflation. There is just too much money floating around right now with the stimulus dollars and low interest rates. Once banks get out of their funk and start loaning again, we may have a serious issue with inflation. If not checked, that will be a big drag on the economy moving forward.
 
Once banks get out of their funk and start loaning again, we may have a serious issue with inflation.

At this rate we are headed for a Hyper inflationary Depression.

Apparently you don't live in MI. #1 in unemployment ! Stimulis ???? WHERE IS IT ? Im waiting to be stimulated !
 
Not many people such as you and I will see anything direct, in terms of cash or relief, of the so called stimulus trillions. Here is why:
Those Trillions , which are really created make-believe-money, are to be mainly used for the banks make-believe leveraged assets. That is the sole conduit with which these trillions can flow. If the Make-believe-money were to flow outside this conduit, i.e. given at the front end to end users as ourselves to pay for real material goods, or loans in default where the real need is (for citizens) then there will be real-time hyper inflation. Real goods have been produced and have to be paid for. Same as consumer loans like mortgages, auto, personal and business loans. A good example of this is that although trillions of dollars have been disbursed to banking institutions, our glorious leaders have canned the billions needed for the f-22 fighter jets, a real material and real-time product, to save real-time money.
Unfortunately, banks and governments have been using leveraged assets as currency, and for that to work there must be a balancing of the books, hence the make believe trillions.
And to make the make-believe trillions to work, they themselves have to be leveraged in a way where these can be converted into real trillions, via those who produce real assets at the very beginning of the equation - the taxpayer.
Thus, the citizen gets the shaft two ways. One is additional taxation to cover the make believe money, though they will hardly see any material gains for the revenue, and the other is the hyperinflation, slowed and delayed but a very necessary part of the equation.
We the citizens have been leased, converted to chattel, for the sole purpose of production of assets we will never see. Our children, and their children, have also been guaranteed a share croppers place in the world as the vicious circle of fake money made with real time/effort/resources is used to pay for fake assets.
 
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