Ethan Winer may be on the verge of proving expensive interconnects don't matter.

[Rich]

I am referring to the power cord that frank suggests for digital equipment..... not the really thick one he suggests for power amps...

Ok, I just went and checked. Turns out my memory fails me. I am actually using the stock power cords on the DAC and Transport.

 

[roberto]

Hola Chicos. Reading you about all this subjective or objective points of view, how many of you, do use AC power conditioners in you sound and video system? My experience tells me to have more than enough than be tight, this is for cables in general. I do believe that cables make my system to sound less worse than to sound better. Also, you have to think in cables as a media inter-fase than just an interconnect. The complexity of the audio signal is very obvious, and your ears tell.
Happy listening!

 

[Pneumonic]

I will take the sound of my Conrad Johnson tube amp over the sound of many SS amps with much lower measurable levels of distortion, any day of the week. Our ears and brains know what they like, despite objective measurements that tell us what "should" sound better.

In the end, there is no direct measurements for taste and one should always select gear that satisfies this taste. For over 30 years I too ran tube gear and experienced many shangri-la moments, despite knowing full well that what I was listening too was anything but accurate in a "hi-fi" sense. Then I assembled my system without a thought to it being "transparent" or sans distortion. I simply kept trying different components until I liked the sound I heard.

This "zero distortion" path of mine simply allows employment of a different approach but with a similarly satisfactory end result.

The best thing with this approach is the ability to limit my sonic variables to just one. Rather than chasing a multitude of variables, and paying handsomely for each futile chase, I need only focus on my room, and how it and my speakers perform together.

This has been an extreme about-face moment in my audio system building life. If only it had happened sooner.

 

[timm]

Ok, I just went and checked. Turns out my memory fails me. I am actually using the stock power cords on the DAC and Transport.

Haha.... ok.... well... let me know if you flip the cords at any time.... I want to know if your brain tells you that you hear a difference!!

 

[timm]

In the end, there is no direct measurements for taste and one should always select gear that satisfies this taste. For over 30 years I too ran tube gear and experienced many shangri-la moments, despite knowing full well that what I was listening too was anything but accurate in a "hi-fi" sense. Then I assembled my system without a thought to it being "transparent" or sans distortion. I simply kept trying different components until I liked the sound I heard.

This "zero distortion" path of mine simply allows employment of a different approach but with a similarly satisfactory end result.

The best thing with this approach is the ability to limit my sonic variables to just one. Rather than chasing a multitude of variables, and paying handsomely for each futile chase, I need only focus on my room, and how it and my speakers perform together.

This has been an extreme about-face moment in my audio system building life. If only it had happened sooner.

I think this is really what Ted Smith does - the designer of the ps audio directstream.... In his threads he has mentioned his primary goal is to simply lower distortion.... lower noise....with each new release.... but not get in the business of 'coloring' the sound..... Some guys have asked for 'more bass' .... that sort of thing -- and he just approaches it as lowering noise ..... reducing the bad things so that the true signal can come thru....He says 'making it less worse'.... and in the end people's needs should be met because the dac is being true to the recording.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Personally I think the fact that I take a 2 month break from my stereo each year helps me appreciate it more.

It feels like I'm hearing it with new ears each year when I finally connect it back up after Christmas.

It sounds absolutely freaking amazing and puts a huge grin on my face.

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop arguing about this.

I know a bunch of people are hearing things that aren't real and a bunch of people feel I'm ignorant about these things.

I'm fine with people feeling that I'm ignorant and apparently I'm only upsetting people.

 

[timm]

Personally I think the fact that I take a 2 month break from my stereo each year helps me appreciate it more.

It feels like I'm hearing it with new ears each year when I finally connect it back up after Christmas.

It sounds absolutely freaking amazing and puts a huge grin on my face.

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop arguing about this.

I know a bunch of people are hearing things that aren't real and a bunch of people feel I'm ignorant about these things.

I'm fine with people feeling that I'm ignorant and apparently I'm only upsetting people.

t
Haha.... I'm not upset...... ..... I understand what you think..... and it is what I think really as well.... but, then I hear a difference... and I am not a zealot on either side of the fence on this topic... I just think there are more variables to shake a stick at that I haven't quite thought thru or am just ignorant about... If you have an opportunity - and you have a friend with expensive cables.... bring yours over to compare etc... and see what they think... what you think etc.... Is there any difference - for better or worse.... The scientific in nature would call it an 'experiment'... Time after time I have seen 'nay-sayers' claim this or that could not possibly make a difference ... or ... a you have to prove it to me attitude.... Then they try it.... gulp .... swallow their words and actually admit .... they can't explain it - but there was a difference since their ears tell them otherwise... The appearance here is that you haven't tried - but based on your engineering experience know there is no reason to.. You have a hypothesis - but you haven't proved anything out..with your ears.. you just know it is so... I am betting for non-critical listening - you probably couldn't tell much of a difference with anything digital.... however, if you sit down .... really listen..... and focus in on the music.... as opposed to life and everything else... you may actually find differences.... Most of us here - I will bet - NEVER unhook our stereo systems.... This isn't a thing that passes by in the night for us.... We really dig it and it is part of our life.....small differences mean a lot and are valued.... Whether the differences are worth the price paid?? Well - that is up to the individual.... But to deny differences without really even trying it out... well it seems silly..... Nothing would have ever been invented with that mindset....

 

[amey01]

I think you and Adam assume too much that you are. As Alexander Pope said, A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Not quite Rich.

Little knowledge is a dangerous thing applies much more aptly to the quotes from the website you posted earlier. Making up rubbish to support their concocted fictions. Like that there is jitter on async/buffered USB. Or that 3.4v signals can get misinterpreted at 2.9v [not going to happen, and even if it does, there is error correction]. And if one of those guys is trying to kid you that "noise from static charge interaction within the cable" is going to be enough to mistake a 1 or a 0 (at the latch voltages used) then I just don't know what to say.

And these are the guys designing and selling this stuff! If they can make up such grand fairy-tales, why would anyone hand over their money?

The only difference is, they have a vested interest - they need to sell cable. I (and assumably Mark) don't. We are just looking at it with an objective mind. And Mark is right - people want to believe.

It is a nice story that you can add a $300 or $400 USB or power cable to your $20,000 speakers and make a substantial upgrade to the sound. It would be really cool if that was the case. But it is nothing more than a fairy-tale.

Why would I believe George Cardas? He has one goal and one goal only; and that is to sell cable.

 

[twich54]

Haha.... ok.... well... let me know if you flip the cords at any time.... I want to know if your brain tells you that you hear a difference!!

Remember ............."It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

 

[Rich]

Adam, you keep repeating the idea that there is error correction involved with asynch USB. My understanding is that it's a one way street, and if there is an error in the data, there is no way for it to request a re-send of the data. Is that incorrect? If not, then how is there error correction?

Ah, the old "those guys have something to sell, so they'll make up anything to sell their products" argument. I don't completely buy into that one, especially regarding someone like Cardas. His products and his views are pretty highly respected in the industry. To each their own.

 

[Rich]

In the end, there is no direct measurements for taste and one should always select gear that satisfies this taste. For over 30 years I too ran tube gear and experienced many shangri-la moments, despite knowing full well that what I was listening too was anything but accurate in a "hi-fi" sense. Then I assembled my system without a thought to it being "transparent" or sans distortion. I simply kept trying different components until I liked the sound I heard.

This "zero distortion" path of mine simply allows employment of a different approach but with a similarly satisfactory end result.

The best thing with this approach is the ability to limit my sonic variables to just one. Rather than chasing a multitude of variables, and paying handsomely for each futile chase, I need only focus on my room, and how it and my speakers perform together.

This has been an extreme about-face moment in my audio system building life. If only it had happened sooner.

I get it. I own the same amps you do and when I had them connected to the ARC Ref 3, the sound was neutral and incredibly accurate. But it proved too sterile for me. The CJ gear is just so much better-sounding to my ears. I'll give up a little accuracy and neutrality for the sound I am getting now.

I've also demoed the Sanders speakers you own a few times. Excellent speakers. I have considered replacing my Summits with them. I have no doubt your system sounds superb.

 

[amey01]

Adam, you keep repeating the idea that there is error correction involved with asynch USB. My understanding is that it's a one way street, and if there is an error in the data, there is no way for it to request a re-send of the data. Is that incorrect? If not, then how is there error correction?

It may be or may not be depending on the implementation / DAC. See my quote above.

Regardless (that is, even on isosynchronous mode with no resend) - there is still error correction in the DAC - this is part of the redbook specification. Some DACs implement their own buffering and additional error correction, however cross-interleaved CIRC is (and always has been) part of the redbook specification.

In addition, the DAC buffers, so it has no jitter - and any jitter that happens on the USB link is therefore about as relevant as jitter on the SATA hard disk link in your server.

Note, with buffering DACS (every halfway decent DAC in the last 20 years), this is also the case for SPDIF / Toslink, however once upon a time, the DAC had no clock and directly locked on to the clock within the sent data. This is where jitter and digital cables were a problem.......however people seem to still latch on to the belief that this is still relevant in the modern world.

For the record, I do not use USB in my system. I have a SBT connected to the server by wi-fi, and to the DAC by S/PDIF. The benefits of having a noisy (electrically and physically) server and hard disk out of the listening room are actually can actually be heard (before I even turn my system on ). And no, my "cable" (the air) makes no difference to the sound of my system.

 

[amey01]

His products and his views are pretty highly respected in the industry. To each their own.

Respected by the international scientific community for all the peer-reviewed, scientific theses he has written on the matter? Or respected by a few audio hobbyists who he has connivingly deceived into believing differences exist when they don't?

(and well, if differences do exist, they are so small as to be insignificant when compared to the difference you could make with a room treatment or new amplifier or playing with speaker placement).

 

[Bernard]

t
Haha.... I'm not upset...... ..... I understand what you think..... and it is what I think really as well.... but, then I hear a difference... and I am not a zealot on either side of the fence on this topic... I just think there are more variables to shake a stick at that I haven't quite thought thru or am just ignorant about... If you have an opportunity - and you have a friend with expensive cables.... bring yours over to compare etc... and see what they think... what you think etc.... Is there any difference - for better or worse.... The scientific in nature would call it an 'experiment'... Time after time I have seen 'nay-sayers' claim this or that could not possibly make a difference ... or ... a you have to prove it to me attitude.... Then they try it.... gulp .... swallow their words and actually admit .... they can't explain it - but there was a difference since their ears tell them otherwise... The appearance here is that you haven't tried - but based on your engineering experience know there is no reason to.. You have a hypothesis - but you haven't proved anything out..with your ears.. you just know it is so... I am betting for non-critical listening - you probably couldn't tell much of a difference with anything digital.... however, if you sit down .... really listen..... and focus in on the music.... as opposed to life and everything else... you may actually find differences.... Most of us here - I will bet - NEVER unhook our stereo systems.... This isn't a thing that passes by in the night for us.... We really dig it and it is part of our life.....small differences mean a lot and are valued.... Whether the differences are worth the price paid?? Well - that is up to the individual.... But to deny differences without really even trying it out... well it seems silly..... Nothing would have ever been invented with that mindset....

Timm, your post is extremely hard to read. I normally skip over huge blocks of text, but this time I persevered and waded through it (had to come up for air a few times).

You have captured very well the point of view of the subjectivists, especially those for whom cable differences make no sense, but who go out there and use their ears. We do, after all, listen with our ears (someone said brains; I'll concede to that).

Great post, Sir!

 

[Bernard]

For the record, I do not use USB in my system. I have a SBT connected to the server by wi-fi, and to the DAC by S/PDIF. The benefits of having a noisy (electrically and physically) server and hard disk out of the listening room are actually can actually be heard (before I even turn my system on ). And no, my "cable" (the air) makes no difference to the sound of my system.

Adam, have you experimented with S/PDIF cables?:devil:

 

[Rich]

(and well, if differences do exist, they are so small as to be insignificant when compared to the difference you could make with a room treatment or new amplifier or playing with speaker placement).

What? A new amplifier? I thought all the objectivists were of the opinion that every well-designed amplifier sounds the same???

 

[amey01]

What? A new amplifier? I thought all the objectivists were of the opinion that every well-designed amplifier sounds the same???

Not me - I have never said that.

 

[timm]

Timm, your post is extremely hard to read. I normally skip over huge blocks of text, but this time I persevered and waded through it (had to come up for air a few times).

You have captured very well the point of view of the subjectivists, especially those for whom cable differences make no sense, but who go out there and use their ears. We do, after all, listen with our ears (someone said brains; I'll concede to that).

Great post, Sir!

You are right Bernard.... I have to watch my ramblings.... and try to split into tiny paragraphs.....

 

[amey01]

Adam, have you experimented with S/PDIF cables?:devil:

Not to any great deal Bernard.

Yes, I very much accept they might make a small difference to sound. Particularly in the olde world of CD transport and dumb/unbuffered DAC. But I've lost no sleep over it - preferring (as stated earlier) to concentrate my time and energy on the big things.

 

[twich54]

What? A new amplifier? I thought all the objectivists were of the opinion that every well-designed amplifier sounds the same???

LOL Rich, Julian Hirsch has been dead for years !