Do I Really Need a Sub?

[amey01]

Hola,
The article is right in a certain way, but this is only for live music. We do not have in the recording industry such high frequency response. The profesional recording microphones, the best quality barely gets to 18KHz!!!

That's interesting - do you know why the anti-aliasing filter required then?

 

[Chops]

Hola,

That's a good question. Well, all depends of your musical material. If you like to listen a church organ, harp or electronic music, then you might need a sub. I do not know from where my dear friend Amey01 says that a violin can produce very low subharmonics...I don't believe that a violin is capable to do that. I have friends that play violin and sometime ago we got together and play some classical music for guitar and string quartets. Not even a cello produce a very low frequency. Here is a chart where you can see the frequency response of most musical instruments:

View attachment 20942

Happy listening!

As usual, this is totally wrong when this subject comes up, and that is NOT what Amey01 meant.

First off, who cares about this chart? It has nothing to do with anything discussed here. Everyone always posts this chart in an attempt to get a point across when it comes to bass and subwoofers, though it misses the point completely. That chart is useless. It does not tell you anything about how the fundamental bass signature of those instruments propagate into a given size room/venue. It's the same thing as measuring a subwoofer in an anechoic chamber vs measuring the same subwoofer in an actual room with room gain which may actually allow it to extend nearly 10 Hz lower than it did in the anechoic chamber.

Second, what I'm sure Amey01 meant was that the actual acoustics of the venue in which the violin was recorded in. Yes, rooms have their own sound, and by the very nature of putting a microphone in a completely silent room/venue and recording it, you WILL hear the natural resonances of the room itself. This is what gives good quality recordings that sense of space.

It does not matter one bit if your main loudspeakers measure flat down to 20 Hz or even 15 Hz. Nine times out of ten, you are NOT going to have those speakers in the proper place for optimal bass reproduction. If you care at all about stereo separation, proper imaging and sound staging, your loudspeakers are going to be nowhere near the correct location for optimal bass reproduction. And if you do have them in that optimal bass location, then it must be a very horrible sounding stereo system.

Also, no amount of DSP corrects for room acoustics such as room modes. A DSP can not and will not move a physical peak or null of a room mode. That is solely left to the dimensions of room, the position of the speakers and more importantly, the position of the listening seat. This is why it's vital to run a separate subwoofer, preferably two subwoofers, and even more preferably, three subwoofers or more.

Properly placed, multiple subwoofers help flatten the range between the peaks and nulls of the room modes, and this is precisely why it doesn't matter one bit what the capabilities are of the main loudspeakers.

And when people say that only 10% of music has any bass information below 40 Hz it total nonsense as well. I get so tired of hearing that comment all the time. Sure, a lack luster recording on a lack luster system, this may be true, but NOT on a good system with a good recording.

In short, ALL LOUDSPEAKERS, no matter what they are, will benefit from subwoofers, period.

 

[Hear Here]

I recently upgraded my Summits to ESL 15A's. Once I change something, I start considering what else I may want to change to bring me to an even higher level of performance. Like many, my system is a hybrid two channel system and home theater, but my primary interest is two channel music. Currently, I have a single Descent i sub hanging off the LFE channel of my Anthem AVM 60. IOW, it isn't involved in my two channel playback. Nonetheless, my dealer is recommending a sub upgrade...

So, I was reading thru the BalancedForce sub manual and noticed that I have a new hook up option that would allow me to bring both my FL and FR channels into one sub, in addition to my current LFE channel connection. That got me thinking about the benefits of bringing a sub into my two channel rig. Several questions came up...

1) when the wife and I are watching a movie, I'm not sure if we ever even notice the current Descent i. Maybe that means it is perfectly integrated with our system, maybe that means it isn't installed correctly, or maybe what we are watching just doesn't have killer bass. If we aren't really feeling/hearing it, do we even need a sub?

2) since we upgraded to the ESL 15A's, we now have bass down to 22 Hz. We aren't listening to church organ music that drops down to 16 Hz, so... do we need a sub to take us deeper?

3) it seems that most of the systems here that are using a sub in their two channel systems, are actually using two subs. While we 'could' physically make that work, they would not be positioned the same on both sides. How much does that matter?

Right now I am looking at either selling my Descent i and just relying on my ESL 15A's bass, or just continuing to run it off the LFE channel of my processor. Wise ML owners please advise!

Have you applied the PBK software to see your response curve on screen? This should answer the question immediately. If the 15A's room-corrected curve at your listening position is pretty much flat in the lower frequencies, adding a sub will only exaggerate bass to an artificial level. My guess is that the 15A with 4 x 12" drivers between them will provide a flat response down to mid 20s. Certainly my Avantgarde speakers (also with 4 x 12" drivers) offer more than enough bass but (as with MLs) the bass level can still be lifted further than "natural" with a simple adjustment on the built-in amp.

 

[Brad225]

As usual, this is totally wrong when this subject comes up, and that is NOT what Amey01 meant.

First off, who cares about this chart? It has nothing to do with anything discussed here. Everyone always posts this chart in an attempt to get a point across when it comes to bass and subwoofers, though it misses the point completely. That chart is useless. It does not tell you anything about how the fundamental bass signature of those instruments propagate into a given size room/venue. It's the same thing as measuring a subwoofer in an anechoic chamber vs measuring the same subwoofer in an actual room with room gain which may actually allow it to extend nearly 10 Hz lower than it did in the anechoic chamber.

Second, what I'm sure Amey01 meant was that the actual acoustics of the venue in which the violin was recorded in. Yes, rooms have their own sound, and by the very nature of putting a microphone in a completely silent room/venue and recording it, you WILL hear the natural resonances of the room itself. This is what gives good quality recordings that sense of space.

It does not matter one bit if your main loudspeakers measure flat down to 20 Hz or even 15 Hz. Nine times out of ten, you are NOT going to have those speakers in the proper place for optimal bass reproduction. If you care at all about stereo separation, proper imaging and sound staging, your loudspeakers are going to be nowhere near the correct location for optimal bass reproduction. And if you do have them in that optimal bass location, then it must be a very horrible sounding stereo system.

Also, no amount of DSP corrects for room acoustics such as room modes. A DSP can not and will not move a physical peak or null of a room mode. That is solely left to the dimensions of room, the position of the speakers and more importantly, the position of the listening seat. This is why it's vital to run a separate subwoofer, preferably two subwoofers, and even more preferably, three subwoofers or more.

Properly placed, multiple subwoofers help flatten the range between the peaks and nulls of the room modes, and this is precisely why it doesn't matter one bit what the capabilities are of the main loudspeakers.

And when people say that only 10% of music has any bass information below 40 Hz it total nonsense as well. I get so tired of hearing that comment all the time. Sure, a lack luster recording on a lack luster system, this may be true, but NOT on a good system with a good recording.

In short, ALL LOUDSPEAKERS, no matter what they are, will benefit from subwoofers, period.

Charles, I think Amey, Roberto and you are really saying the same thing relating to sound with and without subs.
I have used subs with SL3's, different versions of CLS's and my current CLX. They noticeably improve the sound.

I respect you and your knowledge and though I doubt you meant it that way, your post was written it was as though someone put Tiger Balm in your underwear this morning.

 

[Chops]

No, I meant it that way.

If people are willing to spend $10k, $15k, $20K on a pair of speakers, then they should be willing to spend a considerable amount on subwoofers as well instead of cheaping out, cutting corners and saying they "don't need subs because their speakers blah, blah, blah". Or they say "my speakers have built-in room correction".

Room correction, DSP, EQ, etc, etc... None of it corrects properly for the actual room, its room modes, or the speaker/listening position. And more often than not, heavy DSP correction makes everything sound worse, causing more issues than solving them.

 

[roberto]

That's interesting - do you know why the anti-aliasing filter required then?

That's interesting - do you know why the anti-aliasing filter required then?

Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem? This is in the field of digital signal processing which serves as a bridge fundamental between time-continuous and discrete-time signals. The sampling rate theorem. Yes, you are right my friend. But, still my point is, if there is not info from the mic, why to bother? There are only a few mics that their frequency response is beyond the 20KHz.
The question is: do we really meed a sub? Yes! We do.

 

[Hear Here]

No, I meant it that way.

If people are willing to spend $10k, $15k, $20K on a pair of speakers, then they should be willing to spend a considerable amount on subwoofers

Au contraire!

If you spend that much on a speaker, you should hope it was designed to reproduce bass notes without a subwoofer. I've never needed one as I've chosen my speakers carefully with regard to their ability to produce the full range of audible frequencies.

Often subs are "literally" a waste of valuable space in listening rooms. People baulk at buying decent sized main speakers or even choose stand-mount ones to save space but then stuff their rooms with a couple of subs!

If you're prepared to pay a ton of extra cash on subs, consider the alternative - get better speakers in the first place. Exception - great speakers that are unable to offer massive bass. Quad (though later big models are remarkably full of bass), "full range" MLs, Maggies, etc.

"Room Correction" is designed to iron out room nodes but it will equally well adjust for inadequacies in the speaker itself. It worries me that in future speaker designers may leave it to DSP to make up for their laziness to design a first class speaker in the first place!

Peter

 

[BigGuy]

https://mynewmicrophone.com/full-li...-how-to-read-a-spec-sheet/#Frequency-Response
Here are the most expensive mics for professional recordings. The frequency response barely gets to 20KHz.

I have a number of recordings from Mark Waldrep (aka Dr. Aix) which contain ultrasonic content. As indicated human hearing range is nominally 20Hz - 20kHz with the upper limit being beyond the capability of most listeners. There have been studies that suggest that human beings will exhibit a response to ultrasonics be it by the hearing process, bone vibration, etc.

I am using Taket ultrasonic tweeter modules to supplement the frequency response of my CLXes beyond their rated 23kHz. GFWIW, myself and others do notice a difference in the sound quality when the supertweeters are in the system lending a greater sense of detail and spaciousness.

Googling on "microphones for recording music ultrasonics" yields quite a few hits. Here is info from one manufacturer...

https://www.grasacoustics.com/microphone-guide/frequency-range

 

[ttocs]

Wilson Audio has subwoofers for their "medium or larger floorstanding loudspeakers" that are for the frequency range of 10-30Hz. They recommend a stereo pair.

So if I got a pair of Alexx speakers for $109,000, and a pair of Subsonics for $80,000 ($40k each), then take everything out of my great room and make it a dedicated listening room, I might be able to hear some good stuff. Of course if I'm not satisfied with the "basic" Wilson setup, there's plenty of upgrade possibilities in the Wilson lineup.

Last year at AXPONA this exact setup was mated to D'Agostino Relentless amps for the Alexx's, and Momentum amps for the Subsonics. On Friday they sounded great, on Saturday I was happy with my Expressions again. They changed the setup on Saturday and made it worse.

 

[roberto]

I have a number of recordings from Mark Waldrep (aka Dr. Aix) which contain ultrasonic content. As indicated human hearing range is nominally 20Hz - 20kHz with the upper limit being beyond the capability of most listeners. There have been studies that suggest that human beings will exhibit a response to ultrasonics be it by the hearing process, bone vibration, etc.

I am using Taket ultrasonic tweeter modules to supplement the frequency response of my CLXes beyond their rated 23kHz. GFWIW, myself and others do notice a difference in the sound quality when the supertweeters are in the system lending a greater sense of detail and spaciousness.

Googling on "microphones for recording music ultrasonics" yields quite a few hits. Here is info from one manufacturer...

https://www.grasacoustics.com/microphone-guide/frequency-range

Yes, there are some recordings, but that represents less than the 0.1 of our let’s say good recordings. I am not saying that there are not. Just tell me besides Mr Waldrep, has the same recording philosophy. I am a musician and the music is into my bones, but to find such wonderful recordings are not easy. Please, I am not against the Technology, but the truth is that’s what we can get on these days.
Happy listening.

 

[BDH55]

Thx for the lively discussion! Also, big thx to Roberto for introducing me to the Octobasse!!!

As Hear Here suggested, it probably makes sense to wait until I run PBK/ARC before I actually make my decision (which won't happen until I dig out a big hole in the unfinished side of the basement to store my ESL 15A boxes which are currently stuck in my listening room). I've got a lot on my plate right now, but I may spend some time just trying to get my current Descent i outputting a little more bass from the LFE channel. Then, I guess I need to focus on finalizing my ESL 15A placement.. then on running ARC... then, I'll start making sub decisions. I'm probably just trying to do too much at once...

 

[ttocs]

Thx for the lively discussion! Also, big thx to Roberto for introducing me to the Octobasse!!!

As Hear Here suggested, it probably makes sense to wait until I run PBK/ARC before I actually make my decision (which won't happen until I dig out a big hole in the unfinished side of the basement to store my ESL 15A boxes which are currently stuck in my listening room). I've got a lot on my plate right now, but I may spend some time just trying to get my current Descent i outputting a little more bass from the LFE channel. Then, I guess I need to focus on finalizing my ESL 15A placement.. then on running ARC... then, I'll start making sub decisions. I'm probably just trying to do too much at once...

You can store the boxes flat. Take out the foam etc, unfold the front and rear flaps, and the boxes can be flattened. You might want to take some photos so you know which foam goes where first.

Then you've just got a stack of guts and about an inch of cardboard.

 

[Chops]

Au contraire!

If you spend that much on a speaker, you should hope it was designed to reproduce bass notes without a subwoofer. I've never needed one as I've chosen my speakers carefully with regard to their ability to produce the full range of audible frequencies.

Often subs are "literally" a waste of valuable space in listening rooms. People baulk at buying decent sized main speakers or even choose stand-mount ones to save space but then stuff their rooms with a couple of subs!

If you're prepared to pay a ton of extra cash on subs, consider the alternative - get better speakers in the first place. Exception - great speakers that are unable to offer massive bass. Quad (though later big models are remarkably full of bass), "full range" MLs, Maggies, etc.

"Room Correction" is designed to iron out room nodes but it will equally well adjust for inadequacies in the speaker itself. It worries me that in future speaker designers may leave it to DSP to make up for their laziness to design a first class speaker in the first place!

Peter

No. Again, that's totally wrong, and I'm not going to explain it again. Just re-read my post.

But hey, if you want to miss out and have sub-par performance, then so be it.

 

[Robert D]

I dont believe one speaker can do it all. That's like asking my Porsche 911 turbo to tow a boat. It should be able to because it has 540 hp and about as much torque, right?

 

[ttocs]

I dont believe one speaker can do it all. That's like asking my Porsche 911 turbo to tow a boat. It should be able to because it has 540 hp and about as much torque, right?

That's ridiculous, the tow hitch will reduce the ground clearance!

 

[Nuri58]

I'd say that there is a difference between music and movies in this respect. Whilst movies will benefit from subs music may not at least not to that extent. Since I need films I'm in need of a sub. And that gives me the opportunity to chose if the sub should be engaged when listening to music

 

[Chops]

Whilst movies will benefit from subs music may not at least not to that extent.

And that right there is the biggest misconception about subwoofers, and why almost everyone is completely clueless about subwoofers.

 

[ttocs]

^^^^^^Yup.
The reason I posted the Wilson info above was to point out that they think their speakers can benefit from adding subwoofers. I agree.

While I haven't found the secret sauce to make a happy marriage of my current subs with my current speakers, there's still some things left to try, over time. Still learning, so still experimenting and having fun with it. My subs simply aren't as capable as the woofers in my speakers. If anyone has some old 212's laying around they don't want anymore . . . .

 

[Robert D]

Anyone here have the balanced force 210 or 212? Wondering if you had earlier ML subs like my depth i. Ive had a few problems with my depth i and its acting like it might go out on me in the next year or so. I feel like it hasn't been extremely dependable. I had to take it into the shop for 2 problems in the first year of ownership too. Are the new subs more dependable?

 

[roberto]

Robert,

We talked about this. I was an user of the Deth I and never had an issue with it. You can see it on system # 460. Now I have a BF-210. It is a totally different sound. To my ears, its bass is deeper and robust, and blends much better with my CLXs. Also I have no issues. Try it, you might like it as I do.
Happy listening!