Discussion About the Differences Between Different Panel Sizes

[Racero]

When I put a sub with my Aerius, they sounded ten times better. And that was just with an average sub (used Polk Audio). A top of the line Rel, JL Audio, or something similar would probably sound even better. I am not sure the measurements or the physics involved, I just know they sound a LOT better.

-Geoff

I had the same reaction, when I added a Dynamo 500 to my Aerius stats. I thought they sounded great already, but the sub filled in the bottom end nicely. (My son now has that stuff set-up in his condo and loves it, although his neighbors don’t). I moved up to the ReQuests, which don’t need a sub, although I have one.

 

[JonFo]

... With regards to the Neoliths, they have the greatest surface area in terms of stat panels dedicated to mids & highs. However, although the Neoliths have separate bass drivers dedicated to LF reproduction, the stat panels still handle most of the upper to mid bass frequency. It's only the very low notes that get captured by the dual bass drivers, and these can also be adjusted to user requirements and room parameters.

The Neoliths are quite similar to the Statements Evo-II's, where they require a very large room. I did find though on certain occasions the Neoliths to be more coherent. Perhaps due to more stat panel area on the mids and highs alone, and probably the height.

The panel of the Neolith is the exact same size and construction (Gen1 stator perforations) as the one on the Monoliths (different spar layout though), and I agree that the massive surface area allows for higher outputs closer to the crossover points. I run a steep (24/dB Oct.) high-pass at 315Hz on mine and can see the mylar modulate light sources as music plays with strong midbass content. This also permits lower distortion, which is one of the goals I have for my system.

If one treats the room as I have, they work quite well in a tighter space (16 X 26 X10'), but it took a literal ton of treatments to get there.

The imaging and very wide sweet spot are wins from the combo of the large panels and well-managed room reflections.
However, I'd guess the panels from a Renaissance 15A would do just as well, as their Gen2 panels have more active radiating area per square foot.

As for the low end, I find that a line array of smaller woofers is very effective, as I've done with the SL3XC. Then the low bass is handled by as many subs and MBMs as needed to work in a given space.
My next steps here is to convert the Monoliths to monopoles and pair them with their own bass line arrays in an all-new frame system. That will have some serious punch.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one JonFo!

Certainly looks like you're on a mission! I remember the first time I heard the Monoliths, nothing like we've ever heard at the time. This was going way back to 97/98 if memory serves correctly. They were driven with a full lineup of Threshold Class A amplifiers, and these amps used to run hot! The Thresholds really gripped the Monoliths, and it was always a treat to experience them during demos. When we came across the CLS stats, that was a revelation! In the meantime, we had taken up the Maggie dealership for the Sth East Asian region, so most orders were pretty much based on Maggies. We sold a good amount of them back then up to the MG20.1 series, just when one of my Spore dealers had the Apogee Diva's, driven with CJ's Premier 8A monoblocks and the original ART preamp, it was a legendary sound! The moment I heard it, that entire system ended up being our personal reference for many years, mostly due to the longevity factor compared to stats.

Stats just didn't do too well in tropical climates, from Quads, Jansens to ML's, they only lasted a few years the most. I remember taking my big Manley Labs (VTL) Ref350 monoblocks in for repair & service, and in one particular corner of the tech room, were these huge pair of Stats. I asked him what were these, and he said ML! and the rest is history!
What a beautiful sound.

Lucky I'm now based in Oz, Melbourne, as it's mostly hot and dry, ideal for stats! It's always a learning curve to visit other's systems, where they have set up their gear carefully to obtain optimal sound. Regardless of price, as long as the system as a whole can reproduce what's on the recording in its most natural state, that's all that matters to me.
I'm very passionate about Tubes, Stats and TT's... but since lately the digital front ends have vastly improved, so it's defintely good to see that certain gear is really surpassing all those boundries that hindered digital. I guess that's the future, although vinyl is back!

Cheers to that! Oh! and do enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Attn: Amey01

G'day mate, trust all is well at your end of the woods...
You mentioned that you were coming over to Melb for the hifi show? Is that the one organised by SN? I've been to a few of theirs lately, really nothing much going on. However, on a brighter note, I did touch base with a few highend mates, and ended up at their places for late arvo auditions. It's always great to experience new things, especially the Gryphon Pendragon's!

If you do happen to head this way, please get in touch, I'll try to arrange something. I just started working at a new place... may need to take some time off just for you. Anyway let me know. We'll be in touch.

Until then, enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ

 

[amey01]

Attn: Amey01

G'day mate, trust all is well at your end of the woods...
You mentioned that you were coming over to Melb for the hifi show? Is that the one organised by SN? I've been to a few of theirs lately, really nothing much going on. However, on a brighter note, I did touch base with a few highend mates, and ended up at their places for late arvo auditions. It's always great to experience new things, especially the Gryphon Pendragon's!

If you do happen to head this way, please get in touch, I'll try to arrange something. I just started working at a new place... may need to take some time off just for you. Anyway let me know. We'll be in touch.

Until then, enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ

Yes - the SNA one....should be better than last time when there were two audio shows in the same city, one week apart.

I'll certainly get in touch with you.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes - the SNA one....should be better than last time when there were two audio shows in the same city, one week apart.

I'll certainly get in touch with you.

Sounds good mate.
There is this other highend show that happens between Sydney & Melb, takes place once in two years... that's the one to go for. Way different to the SN one, and the calibre of attendees are seriously into this type of gear, not backpackers... running around with plastic bags full of brochures!

Also the demo rooms are well setup compared to the Pullman hotel, which is very crucial in achieving any decent sound. I'm not sure when they're heading this way again, I don't have the info... any ideas?
RJ

 

[amey01]

Sounds good mate.
There is this other highend show that happens between Sydney & Melb, takes place once in two years... that's the one to go for. Way different to the SN one, and the calibre of attendees are seriously into this type of gear, not backpackers... running around with plastic bags full of brochures!

Also the demo rooms are well setup compared to the Pullman hotel, which is very crucial in achieving any decent sound. I'm not sure when they're heading this way again, I don't have the info... any ideas?
RJ

Yes - I've been to the other one plenty of times. I've never been to the SNA one. I believe there was a big debacle last time (pre COVID) because both shows ran in MEL one week apart. Obviously, that action compromised both shows.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, and also SN copied their name, or something to that effect, and it ended up being a huge legal case... ouch!

Not sure how the shows going to pan out this June but I was hoping that Audio Active (main importers for ML) would at least demo the new Ren15a's or Neolith as the show highlight. However, I don't think this would be the case. During the last show when ML launched the new Masterpiece series, AC only demoed the Paradigm Persona speakers...uh? They should have had either the 13A's or 11A's at least but didn't! Silly buggers. Wonder what they'll put on show this time. For me SN is very mediocre, not really high-end audio gear. Entry-level to mid-fi mostly. Good for brand awareness I guess.

Cheers mate, will be touch!
RJ

 

[Leporello]

I tend to disagree with this - I can tell if I have forgotten to turn on my sub with solo flute. While the fundamental may not be in the sub-bass range, there are certainly harmonics down there.

Harmonics? From solo flute? There certainly are not! Maybe you're hearing room noise or rumble that's on the recording. There is no such thing as "harmonics" below the fundamental.

 

[Leporello]

Ah! This has been discussed more than the next launch of Nasa's space mission... and is still being heavily debated on other forums to no end. It does end though only when that person has made such claims and is actually invited to a demo where the CLX's are set up properly. Once they do experience the Low Frequency reproduction, they are stunned and leave shocked! Now, with this response, keeping things in perspective, I will address the basics of LF.

1. How do you define bass? Most people define LF and bass as the same thing... this is not the same. Listen to any live acoustic instrument that plays LF; Cello, Acoustic bass, double bass, bass violin, bass clarinet, saxophone, drums, electric bass etc., listen carefully to these instruments and tell me do any of these go as low as subs? Any?

2. Synthesized bass and organ bass does go low, and for that the CLX's do require subs. However, most of the frequency spec lies in the mid-band, and upper frequencies, this is where electro-stats excel and this is only one of the areas where the CLX impress like no other.

3. When ML designed the CLS, they wanted to achieve ultimate transparency and inner detail, which they achieved at a fine level! After a while people began to complain that their CLS's were bass shy... and so they designed the CLSIIz. This was slightly better but still lacked the LF people were craving for. This "bass" that people think is the norm is actually artificial bass. It comes from LF being bombarded within a cabinet before it's launched out of that driver into the room. This LF is augmented by the cabinet's walls reinforcing that LF to greater boom effect, and this is the bass that most people think is bass! Sadly people, this is not real bass nor is it natural LF recreated.
Therefore, when you listen to a full range stat, there's no bass...uh? Obviously because there's no cabinet or box to add artificial enhancements!

4. And so ML re-designed the full range stat. They redesigned the entire stat panel to tighter tolerances, capable of withstanding 10,000V. They used clear spars with vacuum bonding tech, which is stronger than welding. They incorporated micro-perf stators that has a greater area of sound passing through, overall enhancing transparency and inner detail. Then they totally did a radical design on the bass-stat panels. Triple stators with dual diaphragms, emulating the "dual force" effect found in their hybrid designed built-in subs.

5. If you listen to a CLX system properly set up, and compare it to any man made sub out there, there's no sub on earth that can match the sheer speed of the CLX's bass panels. No chance! The speed in which this dual force, triple stator reproduces LF detail is like no other! It can go quite low with inner detail and layering that was not possible on conventional cones and then it can suddenly accelerate to startling dynamics in mid and upper bass, which subs just cannot keep up. This rise and fall in LF pressure happens with lightening speed, and when compared to normal subs, it's not even funny.

6. Of course there are musical genres that require further LF information, such as synthesized bass and deep organ bass as I mentioned. Plus a full orchestra in full flight may require that added depth in LF if that's what the user is after. There is one other very important aspect of ML stats in general and the CLX's. That is, if that particular LF information is on the recording then ML stats will reproduce exactly that! If this extra low bass information is not on the recording the stats won't reproduce it, simply because it doesn't exist! So, why reproduce something that's not even on the recording!

This artificial enhancement in LF and so called "bass" is what most people crave for, and if this is not reproduced on your stats or panels then maties I'm afraid that stats and panel type speakers aren't for you! And this is why people refer to them as "bass-less" speakers.

Now mate, if you ever happen to pass through Melb, and want to audition what a pair of well set up CLX's are capable of, let me know. There's also another mate of mine who drives his CLX's with a Pass Labs XA30.8 amplifier, and this delivers 30w pure muscle in Class A, the LF and bass detail is even more powerful here than anything I've heard to date, it's phenomenal! Similarly, I've done the required mods on my CJ monoblocks to deliver 60w of Class A bias, and boy do they drive the triple stators to full effect! This is where most "ordinary" amplifiers just can't drive CLX's or full range stats properly. The amplifier has to be able to fully grip and control the dual diaphragms, be able to control dynamic peeks and startling transients with perfect force, and this is done with high current and voltage, not just power in terms of watts, means nothing!

I have tried subs with my CLX's, several brands. REL, Vandy's, Gotham's and the ML matching subs, which also require the internal bass switches to be adjusted. Although very good in terms of added depth and LF heft, it was no match for me compared to the CLX's being driven full range by a Class A designed amplifier. If I had a very large area, such as 40ft by 50ft sq then perhaps...

Cheers maties, have a good one.
RJ

I agree with much of this. Not sure about your semantic difference between "bass" and "LF" But although I'm a big fan of pipe organ music and Mahler symphonies, there isn't a whole lot else in my musical diet that requires deep bass/LF. I'm not a rock fan. Synth bass, occasionally. For most of it I would be perfectly happy with my CLS II's without the sub (can't afford CLX at this time).

BTW I have always been perplexed that ML's specs for the CLS are something like 35-20,000+/- 3dB whereas for the CLX it's 55-20,000 (to this day. Check out their specs pages for both). I did hear the CLX once, at a show, and Dennis Chern was there debunking the myth that ESL's can't do bass. But I wasn't prepared to drop the extra $20K or so for the difference.

If the double diaphragm is too expensive to manufacture they could do a reboot of the CLS, but I don't think they will. They have always been philosophically of a mind that hybrid technology is superior, with which I disagree.