Did I buy the wrong speakers? Vistas bad for classical music?

[remoteportal]

Hi, I'm Peter, a newby from Charlotte, NC, who for the first time is venturing into deeper waters of high fidelity.

Perhaps I didn't do enough research, but I just purchased a pair of Vistas this weekend and noticed that my classical CDs are uninspiring and flat/blah. (Everything else sounds great!)

After the fact, I Googled and I only found one review, where a reviewer said this:

"I discovered
that all woodwinds share a first spectral
peak around 260Hz and that a sax has
its most intense spectral peak around
500Hz. In-room frequency-response
measurements were consistent with my
listening impressions and showed a deficit
of about 3dB over this range...

The bottom line is that the Vista’s
tonal balance is lean, maybe acceptably so
for baroque music, but too much so for
symphonic music. For my taste, I would
prefer a few more dB of upper bass/
lower midrange."

What does this mean? Can somebody please explain tonal balance?

I was hoping to enjoy classical music on these beautiful things. This is my first significant investment and I hope I made the correct choice.

Peter Alvin

 

[twich54]

I just purchased a pair of Vistas this weekend and noticed that my classical CDs are uninspiring and flat/blah. Peter Alvin

Peter, First off, welcome !


If you purchased them new, they will need some time(approx 80-100hrs) to sound their best. Also positioning / location is important as well.

What are you driving them with ?

What is different from your set-up vs. that which you heard them in the dealership ?

 

[ralflar]

Tonal balance: the speaker (amplifier etc.) does not emphasize or attenuate some frequencies more or less than others.

In-room frequency-response: the room in which the speakers play will emphasize or attenuate some frequencies more than others even if the speaker itself is perfectly linear. That's what you reviewer may have heard.

Like Dave I have Vantages which have the same panel as your Vistas. My observation was exactly like Dave's. These speakers need a long time to break in but the results justify the waiting.

I find the reproduction of woodwinds and sax to be a strength of these speakers. Spine-tinglingly so. You made the right choice.

 

[jjcarr]

Peter, also try taking your speakers and pulling them 2' farther out into the room than they are right now and see if they sound better. It's a free test...

 

[amey01]

I own Vistas too, and certainly have no issue with respect to what you are saying.

1: I can certainly attest to the long break-in required. Give the 100 or so hours (driven moderately) and I'm sure you'll find it is a change for the good.

2: Positioning, positioning, positioning! I take it these are your first ES panels? ES panels are dipolar, and require very careful placement. Start with the owners' manual as it offers some good advice. Then keep experimenting. Nothing will reward you more than correct placement.

3: Spikes - For some reason, the Vistas come with stupid round feet - replace them with spikes as soon as you get [2:], above, completed.

4: Amplification: As per my introduction in [2:], ES panels present a very diffucult load to amplifiers. Most of use here use separate pre/power amps, most of the power amps being high-power, high-current SS designs. If you are using a little integrated or worse, A/V or stereo receiver you will just not have the authority and control required to drive these speakers properly.

Hope that is a start.

My first start (and maybe a quick [initial] fix) would be to follow jjcar's advice above and pull them out from the wall a little further, if you haven't done so already. This will give the panel the room to operate correctly and alleviate any chances that the rear wall is causing inteference with your sound.

Welcome, and good luck - you have a world-class speaker - you will be rewarded when you have them right.

 

[risabet]

You could be right, send them to me straight away and I'll sort them out for you. It should only take 6 to 8 months:music: Seriously, let the speakers break in and then reevaluate. A little midbass leanness is not unexpected in brand new speakers. To speed it up wire one speaker out-of-phase, face them together and turn up the volume. most of the sound will cancel so it won't be too loud. MLs do require a load stable amp though either SS or tubes should work well. A good tube amp will make most MLs sing.

 

[roberto]

Hi, I'm Peter, a newby from Charlotte, NC, who for the first time is venturing into deeper waters of high fidelity.

Perhaps I didn't do enough research, but I just purchased a pair of Vistas this weekend and noticed that my classical CDs are uninspiring and flat/blah. (Everything else sounds great!)

After the fact, I Googled and I only found one review, where a reviewer said this:

"I discovered
that all woodwinds share a first spectral
peak around 260Hz and that a sax has
its most intense spectral peak around
500Hz. In-room frequency-response
measurements were consistent with my
listening impressions and showed a deficit
of about 3dB over this range...

The bottom line is that the Vista’s
tonal balance is lean, maybe acceptably so
for baroque music, but too much so for
symphonic music. For my taste, I would
prefer a few more dB of upper bass/
lower midrange."

What does this mean? Can somebody please explain tonal balance?

I was hoping to enjoy classical music on these beautiful things. This is my first significant investment and I hope I made the correct choice.

Peter Alvin

Hola Peter...also, they will show the quality of your goods, and sometimes what you are refering could be electronics. Try different audio gear, and start with your power amp. They need quality watts, not quantity...100W/channel will do perferct. Now you are in the search of new good things in your all audio system. Don't rush, take your time, and get what you liked, not the specs. Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Bernard]

To speed it up wire one speaker out-of-phase, face them together and turn up the volume. most of the sound will cancel so it won't be too loud.

This works with conventional speakers, but I don't think it works with dipoles. You also have to use a mono source with conventional speakers when you do this.

 

[JasonR]

Peter,

Fear not - the Vistas need a LONG break-in time to sound even passable to my ear. I hated how they sounded the day I brought them home, and really wondered if I'd made the wrong decision to replace my SL3s. It took a solid 100-150 hours for them to come into their own. Also, they don't just benefit from the use of the included spikes... I'd consider spikes to be absolutely necessary with the Vistas. Other speakers I've owned sounded better when spiked than not, but the Vistas sound really bad without them. At least that's been my experience in my room.

Good luck, and welcome to the club.

- Jason

 

[risabet]

This works with conventional speakers, but I don't think it works with dipoles. You also have to use a mono source with conventional speakers when you do this.

It actually works quite well. I used this technique to break in my Clarity's. Yes a mono source is the way to go, better cancellation.

 

[Dreamer]

Hi, I'm Peter, a newby from Charlotte, NC, who for the first time is venturing into deeper waters of high fidelity.

Perhaps I didn't do enough research, but I just purchased a pair of Vistas this weekend and noticed that my classical CDs are uninspiring and flat/blah. (Everything else sounds great!)

Peter,

Welcome to the forum, and welcome to the world of Martin Logan speakers. This forum is full of very intelligent, articulate people with a LOT of experience with ML's and hopefully we can help you optimise your experience...

I live in Fayetteville NC, so I guess, at least on this forum, we are "neighbors". I'll be sure to add you to my list of folks to invite when I have my big "Dreamer Listening Day" sometime this summer. Hopefully you can make it out.

As far as the Vistas being bad for classical music, I think you just need to let them break in. The Vista DOES sound sort of muffled and flat for the first 100 or so hours (actually this is true for ALL Martin Logan speakers, I think).

Here is what I suggest. I'll drive down to Charlotte this weekend and get them from you, and bring them back to my house in Fayetteville for a month, and break them in for you. I can lend you my Scenarios (which are perfectly broken in) while the Vistas are being broken in, so you can still have tunes. When I've got them sounding their best, I'll bring them back...

Just joking...

What I would really suggest is to put on either a good classical CD or some sort of "pink noise" track from a test disc, at a moderate volume on a friday afternoon, and then leave the house for a weekend trip to the beach. By the time you get back Sunday night, they should sound a LOT better...

And I also agree that you TOTALLY need to put them on some spikes. I use the "Oregon DV" brand 1.5" spikes under ALL my ML's (Sequels and Scenarios) and they makea HUGE difference, especially in bass response and midrange smoothness and openness. You can get them here:
Oregon DV 1.50" spikes

They cost $7.50 each in gold or black finish. The standard ones--with the 1/4-20 threads--fit older ML's, but I'm not sure if the newer Vistas and Vantages still use the same thread. Ask other Vista owners here on the forum, or call Martin Logan for that info...

Also, I'll agree with the other members in reiterating that the Vista (like many of it's older Martin Logan brothers) is VERY sensitive to the amps you use to drive it. You need a high-current amp--something that can deliver a strong signal into a VERY low resistance load, or else the Vistas will sound thin, flabby, and grainy. Nobody makes a receiver that will drive the Vista to the way it likes to be driven (with the exception perhaps of Sunfire). Look into separates if you don't already have them. A lot of folks on here like Plinius, Pass, Sunfire, and Classe' amps. I have a LOT of Carver amps, and they work well too. Some folks have good results with Audio Research gear--SS and tubes. And I've heard some good Martin Logan systems driven by Krell, Mark Levinson and Bryston amps too, but with those brands you might want to use a tubed preamp, because they sometimes sound dry and clinical with Logans.

And also, if you've never owned Martin Logans before, PLEASE go to the following link on this forum, and read it. It will help you get your new speakers positioned correctly:

Jim Powers "Flashlight" Technique

Welcome, again, and please stay in touch. There aren't many of us ML nuts here in the Carolinas, and we need to stick together...

--Richard

 

[mrmike]

Your Vistas will definately improve with break in but I am willing to bet your biggest problem is the amp. An inferior speaker that is easy to drive might sound better in some ways with your amp.

An inexpesive amp that does a great job with Logans is an Adcom gfa5500. Lots of current and a great sounding amp. Of course Plinus, Pass and Classe are better choices but they are quite a bit more money.

 

[remoteportal]

Answer

What are you driving them with ?

What is different from your set-up vs. that which you heard them in the dealership ?

Thanks for the info!

Yamaha AX-570

I didn't listen to classical music in the store... not very wise! Of course the store had top-notch equipment.

 

[ralflar]

I started with a Yamaha RX-V1600. The pre-amp in that model is worse than the built-in amps. Since manufacturers tend to have a house sound I suspect I would not like any Yamaha receiver at all.

The 1600 removes definition and extension from the top and bottom ends. It generally muddies things up. I believe that the Yammy is part of the problem, but a secondary one. The primary problem is lack of panel break-in.

 

[Rich]

I also used to power my Ascents with an integrated Yamaha receiver -- an RXV-2095. I found out after moving to separates just how bad the yammy was. It was very bright and irritating, with no definition. You need to get a hundred or more hours on your speakers to break in the panels and woofers, and then you will want to upgrade to quality separate amp and preamp.

Martin Logans are known for their superb midrange and ability to render classical music more realistically than just about any other speaker brand. The reviewer you were quoting from had no clue what he was talking about, in my opinion. First of all, if there is just a 3 db drop in the 250 to 500 hz. region, that is going to be barely perceptible to the ears. It is not going to sound "overly lean" unless you are used to a large hump in this range. Second, even if this was an issue, it could easily be fixed by changing the placement of the speakers in the room.

Get your speakers broken in before you do any critical listening. This is true with always with any brand of speakers.

 

[Beakman]

More advice from the Beakman (this is a red-letter day)!
Look at the copyright on the CD labels. A LOT of the classical music in most consumer stores is rehashed OLD recordings. Go to a specialty supplier or a book store like borders (they have a slightly better selection than jerkit city et al) and look for newer renditions or re-masters.
Heck, I bought a two CD set of Vladimir Horowitz, published by Steinway no less, that is the worst POS recording in my whole collection. Now I know better.

 

[DrJRapp]

I think all the comments on break-in are valid, but I also believe that you need to explore placement extensively. I know that when I first got my Summits the midrange sounded clear, but totally sucked out. I had heard the speaks several times before and I knew it just had to be my setup. After about 90 days of moving them around (sometimes as little as 1/4 of an inch at a time) I found the location that avoided the room suck out. All that moving around taught me a lot about room placement and imaging. Try standing up and see if the midrange improves. If it does you may want to experiment with tilting the speaker more upright..ie: elimanate the backwards rake. With my pair I found that the range of the adjustable feet was not adequite so I augmented the rear feet with some furniture "coasters".

 

[cstory]

I have a pair of Vista's and while everyone has their one individual preferences in the way a speaker should sound, I have to say that classical music sounds great on my Vista's. Though most of my classical CD's are SACD's, even my older Telarc CD's still sound fantastic. So I would echo most of the other statements that talk about speaker placement, amplifier choice and break in.

Make sure you have the speakers far enough away from the walls and corners and replace the Yamaha with separates when you get the chance and they should blossom for you.

Chuck