dealer rant..

[New2ML]

Post of the Decade....

Since I see you are in MD, PM me if you want to discuss dealers and issues you have had around the MD area (big hint there FishMan for location) and listening to floor standing ML with movies and music. I believe MiTT said it well in another thread to you, build a nice music system and movies (sonically) will benefit from it.

Thanks.

As per my other post, I now have it covered.

For what it's worth, the room most important to me FIRST, can't use floor standing speakers properly. Knew I had to go inwall. Liked the ML sound.

It was hard finding product to hear.

Started out considering frescoes. Ended up with Voyage / Passage / Helos 100's.

With all the press about inwalls in upscale houses, wave of the future and all of that, dealers are not set up to demo inwalls. I understand all the reasons why. But as a buyer, I won't buy a car I can't test drive, and won't buy a speaker I can't listen to. Pretty simple. If you want my check Mr. Dealer, figure it out. With wiring / installation / various gear to drive it, my check is well into 5 figures. Its worth finding a solution. Don't just tell me "it sounds great" and expect me to fork over cash.

 

[New2ML]

Here has been, I guess, my metamorphosis over the years....

1) I would never buy used.
2) I always needed to hear a demo prior to purchase
3) If I was going to purchase - it would be from my local reputable dealer in
case something went wrong.
4) I always wanted to hear multiple dealers talk about the product and compare them to something that I knew... to verify what my thoughts were.

Today:

1) I will purchase just about anything used.
2) I will buy without a demo
3) I'll buy from the internet either on the 'Gon,ebay, or from a dealer that does buisness online.
4) I will learn and get verification on a product from those online reviews.

Why did I change? Easy - lack of distribution and my increased ability to sell if I needed to. Everything is just a mouse click away. It has become too difficult to get a demo.

If I stumble across a product that I want to hear - to me, that becomes a bonus - not the norm.

I rely a lot on websites like this one, online reviewers etc...

Right now, I'm thinking about the Ps Audio DACIII for purchase. Why? - Becuase of this sight. Can I demo it? No. Can I even touch it or see it in person? No. Have I read all of ther reviews online? Yes. Am I willing to take a risk on purchase from Audio Advisor with a 30 day money back guarantee? Yes.

Where is my local dealer in all of this? Is there a reason they should get paid? Have they done any of the legwork - or helped in my purchasing decision?

Sorry - I started this thread because after going into my local shop I got hacked off at how lame everything was. And the more I read from others - I just get more hacked off... It is not like we all just WANT to go to the internet - It is just their incompetence has sent us there.

Interesting.

Let me pose a business model to you, and since have been from here to there in your experience, I'd be interested in your thoughts.

There are companies that will rent you an expensive camera lens. Rent it for a week or whatever, take it on vacation, return it. At the end of the week, you have a lot of shots taken by you, with your own camera. Some people do this with a lens they are considering purchasing, as a test drive.

If there were a better market to rent a set of speakers for a few weeks or a month to see what you think ... would you?

The lens guys are able to pay for the lens in something like 10 - 15 rentals, and it is pure profit thereafter.

If ML would rent you a set of something for a month, for 1/15 the cost, would you?

ML would get people listening. The renter, and all friends. If the numbers could be made to work, it costs them nothing, and its more effective than any ad. Creates a client to be pulled into a dealer.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Interesting.

Let me pose a business model to you, and since have been from here to there in your experience, I'd be interested in your thoughts.

There are companies that will rent you an expensive camera lens. Rent it for a week or whatever, take it on vacation, return it. At the end of the week, you have a lot of shots taken by you, with your own camera. Some people do this with a lens they are considering purchasing, as a test drive.

If there were a better market to rent a set of speakers for a few weeks or a month to see what you think ... would you?

The lens guys are able to pay for the lens in something like 10 - 15 rentals, and it is pure profit thereafter.

If ML would rent you a set of something for a month, for 1/15 the cost, would you?

ML would get people listening. The renter, and all friends. If the numbers could be made to work, it costs them nothing, and its more effective than any ad. Creates a client to be pulled into a dealer.

I do not think this would help as most stores have a 30 day return policy basically letting you "rent" for free and they still have a hard time getting the speakers into peoples hands

 

[twich54]

Funny you should say that.

I did write the big check in Wilmington.

then either Terry or Tyler are happy for it !

 

[timm]

Interesting.

Let me pose a business model to you, and since have been from here to there in your experience, I'd be interested in your thoughts.

There are companies that will rent you an expensive camera lens. Rent it for a week or whatever, take it on vacation, return it. At the end of the week, you have a lot of shots taken by you, with your own camera. Some people do this with a lens they are considering purchasing, as a test drive.

If there were a better market to rent a set of speakers for a few weeks or a month to see what you think ... would you?

The lens guys are able to pay for the lens in something like 10 - 15 rentals, and it is pure profit thereafter.

If ML would rent you a set of something for a month, for 1/15 the cost, would you?

ML would get people listening. The renter, and all friends. If the numbers could be made to work, it costs them nothing, and its more effective than any ad. Creates a client to be pulled into a dealer.

Myself - I would only do that if the 'rental fee' could be rolled into the purchase price of that product or another one I chose to purchase at the store or from the mfr. A good example might be for an amp or pre-amp to get a feel for system synergy etc...or possibly for cables.... I would have a difficult time purchasing a speaker without hearing it .. so I guess I re-cant part of my statement... If I could never get a demo from a dealer for a particular speaker - and I was definitely in the market for a pair - and I heard great things about the speaker - I might consider this type of scenario.

 

[GregLett]

Interesting.

Let me pose a business model to you, and since have been from here to there in your experience, I'd be interested in your thoughts.

There are companies that will rent you an expensive camera lens. Rent it for a week or whatever, take it on vacation, return it. At the end of the week, you have a lot of shots taken by you, with your own camera. Some people do this with a lens they are considering purchasing, as a test drive.

If there were a better market to rent a set of speakers for a few weeks or a month to see what you think ... would you?

The lens guys are able to pay for the lens in something like 10 - 15 rentals, and it is pure profit thereafter.

If ML would rent you a set of something for a month, for 1/15 the cost, would you?

ML would get people listening. The renter, and all friends. If the numbers could be made to work, it costs them nothing, and its more effective than any ad. Creates a client to be pulled into a dealer.

This is not a bad idea at all. It's already done with cables and I've used the service in the past. The rental cost can be used toward the purchase of new or used cables.
The up front cost for equipment would be high, and certain pieces would be expensive to ship but nothing is impossible.

 

[DTB300]

Rental is along the same idea I have of paying a fee for home audition. Lower fee if equipment is used when store is not open - idea is you are not taking away from customers being able to hear the product - higher fee for store hours removal. Or a per day/week/month fee, etc.

If you buy the product then it is applied to the purchase cost of that product - it would not be an accumulative thing if auditioning mulitple products. Buyers SERIOUSLY interested in an item AND serious about purchasing from a dealer would/should not mind the rental/auditioning fee. I know I wouldn't.

 

[GregLett]

Rental is along the same idea I have of paying a fee for home audition. Lower fee if equipment is used when store is not open - idea is you are not taking away from customers being able to hear the product - higher fee for store hours removal. Or a per day/week/month fee, etc.

If you buy the product then it is applied to the purchase cost of that product - it would not be an accumulative thing if auditioning mulitple products. Buyers SERIOUSLY interested in an item AND serious about purchasing from a dealer would/should not mind the rental/auditioning fee. I know I wouldn't.

I agree.I think only the ones who have no intention of buying the product from the dealer would object.

 

[preston]

Some good stores in Boston area

Interesting thread.

While Boston is hardly a hotbed of audio, there are still a few good audio shops in the Boston area:

* I have to say that my experience at Goodwin's High End in Waltham, a Martin Logan dealer, have been excellent. Before even qualifying me (I was just looking for some $100 accessories) one of the sales reps invited me to help them tweak and listen to a new $130k system; I let the sales guy know that I will not ever be buying gear at that level and he insisted that this would be fun and unique opportunity. We listened for over an hour and he was right. They have some good listening rooms. They also have gear at prices mortals can also afford

* Audio Proz in Watertown is run by an audio engineer who sells used gear at reasonable prices with a solid guarantee. Great selection for those looking for popular prices and advice from a passionate audio guy

* My experience with the sales staff at Natural Sound in Framingham has been just as positive, although the listening rooms are not quite as refined as those at Goodwins

 

[Tosh]

OP (and some others): Seems a pretty self-serving rant unless you're going to name the place that gave you attitude? You scared of something? Reporting a real experience or impression is not libelous (or even gossippy). Time to name names!

 

[MDSPHOTO]

No more dealers

For Atlanta ML fans, it looks like mail order is now our only option. HiFi Buys (Tweeter), to my knowledge, was the last full-line ML dealer in our area and they just closed the last of their stores.

 

[timm]

OP (and some others): Seems a pretty self-serving rant unless you're going to name the place that gave you attitude? You scared of something? Reporting a real experience or impression is not libelous (or even gossippy). Time to name names!

I don't recall saying anyone gave me 'attitude'. What I was trying to say was - with all of the underlying 'you gonna go get it on the internet now?' types of sentiment within the dealer network - what many of them fail to realize is that they pretty much steer many of us there or to catalogs because they either don't carry the product (even though they are a dealer) or because they don't want to do a nice A/B comparison for you because they are set up in a way that makes it too cumbersome for them to do it.

The underlying theme of this 'rant' was a call for dealers to GET IN THE GAME!!! This is not to say some are not in the game. I know some of you have had good experiences.... But, in my area it is difficult....and seems like it is that way for others too - if you read the other posts. My intent was not to call out a particular dealer - but to throw this out there to see if it is something that seems typical across the country. And - it seems to be. I don't see that as 'self-serving'...

 

[tonepub]

Take a factory tour.. As I recall they had some inwalls set up there.

Worth a try..

 

[New2ML]

Thanks.

As per my other post, I now have it covered.

For what it's worth, the room most important to me FIRST, can't use floor standing speakers properly. Knew I had to go inwall. Liked the ML sound.

It was hard finding product to hear.

Started out considering frescoes. Ended up with Voyage / Passage / Helos 100's.

With all the press about inwalls in upscale houses, wave of the future and all of that, dealers are not set up to demo inwalls. I understand all the reasons why. But as a buyer, I won't buy a car I can't test drive, and won't buy a speaker I can't listen to. Pretty simple. If you want my check Mr. Dealer, figure it out. With wiring / installation / various gear to drive it, my check is well into 5 figures. Its worth finding a solution. Don't just tell me "it sounds great" and expect me to fork over cash.

With my system now installed, this old thread came to mind, especially given the "dealer rant" topic.

My system is inwalls. The thing about service with freestanding speakers is you are basically hearing a demo, then ordering a box. The dealer support you need is really pretty limited. Maybe some help with cables, or dealing with goods damaged in shipment, or something similar.

With inwalls, you are hooked to your dealer for better or worse. A lot of what they are providing is installation and setup. Much more service intensive.

So what in the hell do you do when you flat LOVE the product ... did a fine job of installing, taking care of the kind of snafus that do arise, and nicely ... but they have billing practices that border on abusive? Each time they come anywhere near the place, the "estimate" of cost is an outright joke, being many thousands off when the bill arrives with its inflated labor hours and cost per hour. What a quandry. It is damned hard to find people in this field that know what they are doing, so when you find someone, you really want to stick with them. But damnation, do they really have to screw you each and EVERY time on the bill?

I have more work to be done, but it is really hard to get excited about doing the next phase and the pleasure you hope it brings you, when you know going in you are going to be raped. It does make you want to hunt for an alternate source.

GRRRRRR

End of rant.




PS: This board is very focused on the electrostat ML's, understandably since they are fabulous. But let me tell you, the inwall's ML makes are simply terrific. Too bad they just don't get noticed by more people. Which gets back to how hard it is to find demo opportunities for them.

 

[babydoc]

M-L in the South

For Atlanta ML fans, it looks like mail order is now our only option. HiFi Buys (Tweeter), to my knowledge, was the last full-line ML dealer in our area and they just closed the last of their stores.

For those living in the SE region (GA, SC, NC, FL), it must be accepted that in exchange for hospitable weather, there is a dearth of bricks and mortar dealers for the higher end M-L speakers. Let me bring to your attention a small family owned business that I have dealt with for more than 2 decades in Charleston SC: Read Brothers Stereo. They are the best in every aspect that I can think of. Friendly, no sales pressure, an actual demo room with real speakers set up as you would at home. They are interested in making sure that if you buy something from them it will be well supported and you will be a repeat customer in the future. Shock and awe! BTW they have an listing on the internet.
I have had many of the same experiences which most of you have lamented. Life is simply too short to put up with such operations. It might be unethical to create a "bad" list of high end stores. However, it might be helpful to those considering where to buy their speakers.