dealer rant..

[Tube60]

@Tube60:
How could you tell that the other customer in the store was gang member?

He was wearing the local colors, and his bodyguards very clearly had .357s under their jerseys. And he wasn't driving an S-class Merc..... it was a p.o.s. older domestic with about $5k worth of rims & tires on it. And the LAPD were watching from across the street. Kind of added up to a gang member to me based on the evidence at hand!

 

[gregadd]

I knew him when

I knew one of the owners when he was selling out of his house. He is an engineer and lawyer during the day. Like most of the dealers from long ago he turned his hobby into a business. He used to loan equipment out based only on the customers promise to return it.
He almost went out of business and was forced to take on a partner. Despite being friends I too no longer go to the store. It's just not a pleasant experience any more.
gregadd

 

[Irishtom]

Saturday I bought a pair of Vistas at Saturday Audio Exchange in Chicago and I was treated like a prince. Some old-time hi-fi guys in there; we talked old Altecs, JBL Paragons and Hartsfields, Infinity IRSs, Dayton-Wrights and other good stuff like that. Spent a couple of hours shooting the bull with the guys there, great place.

 

[GregLett]

This is a rather interesting thread.

Do you think the attitude toward the 'little guy' (most of us on this forum) has changed because the dealers think that many of us might audition their new amp/CD player/speakers at home only to turn around and buy a floor model from another place, or maybe last year's model at a hefty discount?

Yep. or Audiogon.

In my opinion, the other issue that challenges many dealers is that the 'pool' of potential buyers is very, very small. How many people actually buy new high-end audio gear? It can't be all that many. There are a lot of great products, stores, dealers, etc and they are all chasing a limited group (or pool of money).

This is true.




For those of you that own or manage small businesses, how would you handle this? I happen to agree with the other posters stating that in the end, the stores with knowledgeable staff and good service will be the last ones standing.

I don't think so. The interned is killing the brick and mortar guys, no matter how small.
How many guys here purchased their gear new from a dealer?

 

[twich54]

How many guys here purchased their gear new from a dealer?

Most definetly !

 

[timm]

Re: who purchases new from a dealer?

Some things I have purchased new - and others I have not. But, my point was - given the increased competition - not only because of an increased distribution network (the internet) - but also because of increased competition for price - You would think that maybe it would be nice - if just once - I felt like these dealers had an open door policy to allow us to come in listen to some good music on some good equipment - and then maybe they would catch us? But, no - it is almost like they have this attitude and are pi$$ed or something. If you want to preach service etc... maybe the service starts BEFORE the sale - not after it. Maybe they have to EARN the sale...prove that it is more than price. They don't do that. In fact, they do just the opposite. You walk in there and they figure you are just getting a demo so you can go buy on the internet. Well - do something about that Mr. Dealer. Go out of your way to help me out with a good demo... Suggest that I bring in my equipment so we can do a nice A/B comparison....Oh....too much trouble for you? You figure I'm just going to buy from the internet? Ok... I'll take my business elsewhere. Will I go down the street to another dealer? What - to be treated like crap again? Hey....maybe I will go to the internet? Maybe that isn't such a bad idea after all....

the rant continues....

 

[GregLett]

Re: who purchases new from a dealer?

Some things I have purchased new - and others I have not. But, my point was - given the increased competition - not only because of an increased distribution network (the internet) - but also because of increased competition for price - You would think that maybe it would be nice - if just once - I felt like these dealers had an open door policy to allow us to come in listen to some good music on some good equipment - and then maybe they would catch us? But, no - it is almost like they have this attitude and are pi$$ed or something. If you want to preach service etc... maybe the service starts BEFORE the sale - not after it. Maybe they have to EARN the sale...prove that it is more than price. They don't do that. In fact, they do just the opposite. You walk in there and they figure you are just getting a demo so you can go buy on the internet. Well - do something about that Mr. Dealer. Go out of your way to help me out with a good demo... Suggest that I bring in my equipment so we can do a nice A/B comparison....Oh....too much trouble for you? You figure I'm just going to buy from the internet? Ok... I'll take my business elsewhere. Will I go down the street to another dealer? What - to be treated like crap again? Hey....maybe I will go to the internet? Maybe that isn't such a bad idea after all....

the rant continues....

I agree there is no excuse to be impolite to potential customers. I have met both types of dealers in my travels and for the most part they try to earn the sale. But the bottom for dealers is the many Audiophiles buy used, even when
they are treated nicely, and offered items to take home. The bottom line is that they just cannot afford or refuse to pay the asking price for the equipment.
I started a home based audio business to address the very issue (mean dealers) you stated. I do it part time so I don't sweat it, but many sales are lost to the net because folks don't want to pay the asking price.
The non-audiophiles purchase more than the audiophiles. The non-audiophile
sets a budget, appreciates the service. and makes a purchase.
The Audiophile just wants great gear at a huge discount.. see the growth on Audiogon.

I love when I read posters complaining about lack of places to audition gear, but those same posters make most if not all of their purchases on the used market.
But I agree no dealer should take it out on a customer.

 

[SundayNiagara]

I agree there is no excuse to be impolite to potential customers. I have met both types of dealers in my travels and for the most part they try to earn the sale. But the bottom for dealers is the many Audiophiles buy used, even when
they are treated nicely, and offered items to take home. The bottom line is that they just cannot afford or refuse to pay the asking price for the equipment.
I started a home based audio business to address the very issue (mean dealers) you stated. I do it part time so I don't sweat it, but many sales are lost to the net because folks don't want to pay the asking price.
The non-audiophiles purchase more than the audiophiles. The non-audiophile
sets a budget, appreciates the service. and makes a purchase.
The Audiophile just wants great gear at a huge discount.. see the growth on Audiogon.

I love when I read posters complaining about lack of places to audition gear, but those same posters make most if not all of their purchases on the used market.
But I agree no dealer should take it out on a customer.

Post of the day! And you guys wonder why ML doesn't exhibit in Denver?

 

[twich54]

Post of the day! And you guys wonder why ML doesn't exhibit in Denver?

Don't know exactly what you mean in this Sunday ??? If your talking MSRP, where the "S" stands for 'suggested', I don't know of anybody that pays MSRP for big ticket items, be it new or used.

 

[tonepub]

ML doesn't show in Denver because of the logistics with CEDIA....

I'm sure if CEDIA were a bit earlier in the year, they probably would.

 

[eknuds01]

Post of the day! And you guys wonder why ML doesn't exhibit in Denver?

There are a number of reasons why ML did not (or would not) go to last year's RMAF. Some of them include:

Travel cost and logistics - is worth it for ML? Surely they'd want a very large room or one of the downstairs areas (large ballroom type spaces that command a hefty price I am sure)

Rave reviews at various Hi-Fi shows prior to the RMAF - they already got some good press and may not need any more (though one could argue that you can never have too much good publicity)

Jeff already mentioned CEDIA

You can perceive ML not attending to be a missed tactical opporunity to be a 'giant' killer compared to the larger Utopia speakers. Maybe that's another reason they opted out - it was a crowded exhibition already.

Another angle to consider is the relative value of our products. Hi-end products are notoriously expensive and if I can get a similar looking/sounding/performing amp/cd player/speaker at 50% off - to me that seems like a no-brainer. The price difference between a brand new product and one that is just a year or two old (maybe way older-depends on what you want) is so substantial in this hobby that it is difficult to ignore the savings.

To me, it's not the same thing as buying a pair of shoes on the internet. If I find some Nike sneakers online for $50 and see the same pair at the store for $65, it's basically a wash once you factor in shipping. I'll probably just go to the store.

It seems that in the last 10-20 years we've seen numerous improvements and technical advancements in our hobby. Each and every year other processes improve that make manufacturing easier and cheaper and as a result better and better products hit the market. The market seems to be saturated with new and used equipment all over the place. I bet someone like Jeff can rattle off 20-30 different names (and countless models from each brand name) for any product (amp, cd player, speaker, etc) you want. He probably would produce a smaller list if we go back to 1990 or so.

This 'problem' affects more than the just the hi-end audio dealers, but just about any other retail outlet. You can buy used books online (Amazon), clothes, CDs etc often at hefty discounts relative to buying new.

Most of the people selling the used equipment take excellent care of their stuff. I have a pre-amp that's at least 10 years old that looks like it is brand new! It might be different it the appearance and performance degraded over time, but that's not the case. Whereas someone might feel differently about buying a car that's 10+ years old vs a brand new one.

Maybe the question becomes - how does the hi-end dealer (or OEM) compete with the used market? A couple of things come to mind - very long warranties are nice. I almost bought a new Bryston amp because they are known for their 25 year warranty (assuming they still do this). Maybe they can offer plans to upgrade your equipment (new capacitors, etc) for a nominal fee (or include shipping). This might make people hold on to their equipment longer.

But with such a crowded market, the competition is fierce.

 

[SundayNiagara]

We've went thru this before, the 'philes don't buy new, they wait 'til the product/s appear on the used market. Industry people who attended the 'fest in 07, told me they did ZERO biz from the 'fest. These folks are both Mac and ML reps.

 

[twich54]

We've went thru this before, the 'philes don't buy new.

100% BS !!!! "Smart people shop Smart"....period ...again, be new or used !

 

[FISH_MAN]

100% BS !!!! "Smart people shop Smart"....period ...again, be new or used !

why give your money away right !

 

[GregLett]

100% BS !!!! "Smart people shop Smart"....period ...again, be new or used !

Most seem t believe the smart thing to do is to buy used, or demo never new.
Let's be hones't that will save you $$ but it will not save the dealers. I think if you are in the "used demo only" crowd the last thing you should complain about are dealers.
I know people like that personally.they always want to take home my pieces for audition and then look. To Audiogon for the purchase. I guess that would make them smart and me dumb.
I am still polite though.

 

[twich54]

Greg,

You seem to forget......"Smart DEALERS sell Smart also" ! meaning lots of dealers actively participate on the "Gon" as well.

 

[GregLett]

Greg,

You seem to forget......"Smart DEALERS sell Smart also" ! meaning lots of dealers actively participate on the "Gon" as well.

They do.. breaking the rules of course. But selling a new unit as a "one week old demo" wink wink. at a heavy discount hurts their bottom line as well as other dealers. The area reps really hate that.
The Gon is not exactly cheap:

 

[RichTeer]

I strongly believe in supporting my local dealer, provided they offer what I'm looking for. My local ML dealer, The Hifi Attic in Vernon, couldn't have been more helpful. They let me borrow several pairs of speakers--without a deposit I might add!--and some Nordost Frey interconnect too.

When I did finally order my Spires from them, we negotiated what I thought was a fair discount. Sure, everyone likes to get a deal, but at the end of the day the dealer has to pay his mortgage and put food on his table too.

Because I tend to keep my stuff for quite a long time, I prefer to buy brand new. It costs me more, but I really like the feeling of unwrapping a brand new toy!

 

[Rich]

I have done this every way: bought lots of stuff new from my local dealer, bought directly from manufacturers like Roger Sanders, bought used off the 'gon, and bought new at a big discount from dealers on the 'gon. I try to shop smart and have rarely, if ever, paid full retail for my gear or been disappointed in my purchase. Some of my high end components, like the Pass Labs amp and the Meridian Processor, I got at huge discounts to retail by buying from dealers on the 'Gon.

I try to give my local dealer business when possible, but have been disappointed that they don't carry the higher end products. I couldn't audition my Summits there and they certainly won't be carrying the CLX in stock. This limits my loyalty to them to a certain extent. But I do support them when I can.

I think the lesson is that the marketplace in high-end audio is evolving very quickly, and if manufacturers and dealers don't figure it out pretty quickly, then some of them will be going out of business. Ultimately, the end user just wants a great product at a reasonable price. They just have a lot more means to obtain that at their disposal these days.

 

[tonepub]

well, someone has to buy it new and be willing to get rid of it, so there can be a used market....

there are still plenty of people that don't want someone else's used gear. I know plenty of finicky types who want to buy new gear that no one else has had and I completely understand it.

so there's always a balance somewhere.

while I really enjoy the vibe of the RMAF, it's not a terribly profitable place for mfrs. to go and I appreciate the fact that so many of them contribute to the event. with about 3000 attendees last year, at least a third, if not half were industry or industry related people. half of the remaining half are DIY'ers or people that want to buy used anyway and make no bones about announcing that to anyone in earshot, so at best maybe there were 5-600 people there that were actually interested in buying gear.

We did a recent poll on Audio Circle asking how many people were going to RMAF to help with a purchase decision and only 10% responded positively. A recent poll on Steve Hoffmans forum about "how many times do you go to an audio store" had an average response of "once a year".

So, at that point, while some of you are waiting for the good used deals, I think it's not sending a terribly good message to the mfr's as to why they should take 10-50k out of their pockets to go to RMAF.