Cryogenics Redux

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Somehow my intial posting seemed to mostly generate a series of spousal drolleries.
Is it possible that my fingers typed "myspace.com" instead of "martinloganowners.com"?
So I take the liberty of quoting my initial posting in the hope to learn something from others on this subject.
Any empirical information anyone?

QUOTE:
"This process which is used to increase the lifespan of metal tools and machinery by up to 400%, is also seen in some products in high resolution audio.

I have been using ZYX phono cartridges for the past few years and recently traded up to the ZYX Universe which in it's literature claims cryogenic treatment of it's components.
I have no way of telling whether a Universe without cryo would be sounding different, all I know is that it does sound better than any cartridge I have ever owned or heard.
Other experience I have had involves my system's wires: power, interconnect and speaker. I use a proprietary custom solid copper double strand weave probably less than gauge 8 all cryo treated for 24 hours at -300F. I use the same wire throughout for all connections including AC powercords.

I always had separate circuits for my sound systems but two years ago I decided to install a completely separate service box and the same solid copper wiring right from where Edison connects to the house.

After it was installed I decided to take it back out and to have it cryogenically treated by Cryogenic Tempering Services in Decatur. I sent them not just the wire, but included the actual service box, the breakers, the wall outlets and the connectors.
I was hoping for some discernible effect but instead found a significant increase in power and breadth, as if I had installed much larger amplifiers.
There are also output tubes on the market such 6550's and KT88's that have been cryo treated and I have spoken to some people who claim to have their entire amplifiers taken into deep freeze. I am more than reluctant to attempt this however, given that there are so many non metal components in most electronics which might not take well to being taken down to -300 Fahrenheit.

Which brings me to a question, has anyone tried this process beyond what I have described above and with what results?

I have certainly found that cryogenically treating these basic hardware components gave a huge improvements at very modest cost (less than $100). Sending in a $10K preamp is another leap altogether though."

Any comments or factual experience?

 

[marlin]

cryogenics

My company does cryogenic treatments on heat treated steel parts.
Depending on the material and prior treatment it can make a huge difference in the life of parts. It can be seen on a microstructural level what it accomplishes.
Translating that to audio equipment or other items might be more difficult.
Being an audiophile for 25 years I have seen fads come and go.
I will not state that it is not possible that it can make a difference but when cryogenics began to be made commercially available, equipment makers would make wild claims of the benefits of cryogenics treatment with little or no hard evidence.
I have seen a variety of items go through the treatment, panty hose, engine blocks, golf clubs, the list goes on. The bottom line is that they never came back with more items. A sign of failure?
I would hesitate to subject any of my equipment to the process without having A-B comparisons or some other definitive proof of benefit.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Please don't go there!

Somehow my intial posting seemed to mostly generate a series of infantile spousal drolleries.
Is it possible that my fingers typed "myspace.com" instead of "martinloganowners.com"?
So I take the liberty of quoting my initial posting in the hope to learn something from others on this subject.
Any empirical information anyone?

QUOTE:
"This process which is used to increase the lifespan of metal tools and machinery by up to 400%, is also seen in some products in high resolution audio.

I have been using ZYX phono cartridges for the past few years and recently traded up to the ZYX Universe which in it's literature claims cryogenic treatment of it's components.
I have no way of telling whether a Universe without cryo would be sounding different, all I know is that it does sound better than any cartridge I have ever owned or heard.
Other experience I have had involves my system's wires: power, interconnect and speaker. I use a proprietary custom solid copper double strand weave probably less than gauge 8 all cryo treated for 24 hours at -300F. I use the same wire throughout for all connections including AC powercords.

I always had separate circuits for my sound systems but two years ago I decided to install a completely separate service box and the same solid copper wiring right from where Edison connects to the house.

After it was installed I decided to take it back out and to have it cryogenically treated by Cryogenic Tempering Services in Decatur. I sent them not just the wire, but included the actual service box, the breakers, the wall outlets and the connectors.
I was hoping for some discernible effect but instead found a significant increase in power and breadth, as if I had installed much larger amplifiers.
There are also output tubes on the market such 6550's and KT88's that have been cryo treated and I have spoken to some people who claim to have their entire amplifiers taken into deep freeze. I am more than reluctant to attempt this however, given that there are so many non metal components in most electronics which might not take well to being taken down to -300 Fahrenheit.

Which brings me to a question, has anyone tried this process beyond what I have described above and with what results?

I have certainly found that cryogenically treating these basic hardware components gave a huge improvements at very modest cost (less than $100). Sending in a $10K preamp is another leap altogether though."

Any comments or factual experience?

Please don't use the word "infantile". The obvious inference is that you have important information that we all don't possess and it suggests some sort of judgment of the members reaction to your post.

FWIW, I've posted numerous times regarding things that I felt were important and these posts were totally ignored. I've verified this phenomena with other seasoned members of this website. I don't take it personally and neither should you. IMHO, confrontational behavior is not appropriate or productive on this website. PLEASE CHILL!

And no, this is not "myspace.com".

GG

 

[ralflar]

dbakker,

What Gordon said. Wayne's post was witty and funny. Going OT like that is part of the allure of this site. Seeing it called infantile is not. Just don't.

As far as empirical information, Marlin's post is probably as factual as it gets. Or are you looking for before/after audition experiences? (Which would by definition not be factual at all.) Just trying to understand the nature of your question.

 

[ralflar]

Marlin, thanks for sharing your insights. If it's not asking too much, could you please expand on those microstructural changes. Physics lingo is fine. If I don't understand there's always Google Scholar. And if that won't help either I'll admit defeat and ask for a simpler explanation .

 

[theWB]

Somehow my intial posting seemed to mostly generate a series of infantile spousal drolleries.

I resemble that remark!

dbakker,
I didn't mean to hijack the thread, My post was only meant to get a little chuckle.

I rarely am able to contribute to the technical side of this hobby. I'm more of a music afficianado than and audiophile.

Sometimes I think we spend to much time and money to improve the sound of our systems rather than enjoy the music they produce.

I'm just as guilty as everyone else in this hobby of doing just that, and sometimes we just have to laugh at ourselves and some of the absurdities of our hobby.

 

[[email protected]]

I resemble that remark!

dbakker,
I didn't mean to hijack the thread, My post was only meant to get a little chuckle.

I rarely am able to contribute to the technical side of this hobby. I'm more of a music afficianado than and audiophile.

Sometimes I think we spend to much time and money to improve the sound of our systems rather than enjoy the music they produce.

I'm just as guilty as everyone else in this hobby of doing just that, and sometimes we just have to laugh at ourselves and some of the absurdities of our hobby.

To WB my sincere apologies for falling of the courtesy rail there.
You are quite right about "the sound of our systems" and I do hope that all this madness is somewhere still in the service of music. I try to do my bit by subscribing to the symphony season.

Last week the Detroit Symphony performed John Corigliano's Quilt, his 1st Symphony, music of such intense power and intensity that it left the the audience gasping and some clutching their ears. All without an amplifier in sight.

 

[twich54]

Being an audiophile for 25 years I have seen fads come and go.

Having been a competitive Bench Rest Shooter myself I remember about ten years ago all the "rage" was to have your barrel "cryoed" for improved accuracy and barrel life. Well while the barrel life improvement could be somewhat validated the accuracy part has always been debatable.

With respect to our Audio hobby any improvement would be 'subtle' at best, for in this hobby, improvements tend to get 'blown out' of proportion, IMO.

 

[kcl]

When I had my Oppo 970 upgraded by Reference Audio Mods, I included the cryo treatment. I did this because my research indicated an increased lifetime and reduced long-term degradation of components. The 'improvement' in sound is probably debatable, although I didn't hear a before and after so I cannot really comment on that. I considered the relatively small increment in overall cost (less than a couple of hundred dollars, IIRC) as reasonable for what I was looking for.

 

[amey01]

I've seen many "treatments" come and go as well. Most are labelled "essential" at the time.

My advice would be to give them a try if they are cheap and/or easy, but more meaningful upgrades can be attained elsewhere byway of more standard measures.

eg. Spending $1,000 on cryogenic treatments versus spending that on an upgraded amplifier.