CLSIIz

[lugano]

nsgarch - setting my CLs as you suggest would make me listen at the martin logan logo placed under the panels, instead of listening to the music. Not to mention the fact that by raising the CLs you are kissing goodbye a great share of bass frequencies - and one should extract any cubic inch of bass out of the CLS, before going alternate roads like adding subwoofers etc. I don't know if you got shares in this company raising CLs'es on metal stands or not, but I really find it freaking stupid, and please consider that I really tried it hard to hold myself on this, but I can't take it no more. How can you be serious on this ? Are you a basketball player measuring 6.5 feet ? If yes, you make sense, if not, reconsider.

 

[DTB300]

Lets Get Ready to Rumble!!!!!!!! :devil: :banghead:

 

[nsgarch]

Lugano, all my responses to your criticims are already well-covered in my post, and confirmed by Martin Logan over fifteen years ago. Neither I nor Martin Logan has any interest in Sound Anchor or Arcici. The kind of bass reinforcement you get off the floor is boomy and undesireable, as I mentioned several posts ago.

On Sound Anchor stands, the ML logo is 21" off the floor. Unless you are a little person, you must be sitting in a pit for your ears to be even with something 21" high! Maybe you should invest in a decent listening chair before you buy those stands

 

[Peter Hogan]

Hi,
I'll add one more vote for having the CLS's on stands. I've tried them both ways, and I think they sound better off the floor on stands. Try it both ways, and decide for yourself...

Peter

 

[jjqiv]

This prompted me to finally try raising my CLS's. I have them raised an additional eight inches off the ground. The trade-off is I completely lost some of lower bass and some mid-bass weight with the CLS's raised. Too my ears, you need a sub with them raised. I am currently running the CLS's full range without a cross-over in the CLS's path. The benefits are more mid-range coherency. Vocals are definitely improved. So far, I think I prefer the panels on the ground. I'm having a hard time trying to get the sub to blend as well as I have in the past when running the panels full range.

When I have some more time, I will put my cross-over back into to the mix. That's another cost-benefit situation that is more noticeable in the clarity of the highs vs. more mid-bass weight and dynamics. Hmmm? Plus, I am having a hard time getting out the analytical mode of listening right now. Maybe raising them 4 or 6 inches instead? Hmmm? Maybe raising them with sand boxes?

I am sure the addition of the rigid bracing provided by stands would be another plus in the equation as well. I have thought of making my own braced stands that incorporate sand boxes.

 

[nsgarch]

This prompted me to finally try raising my CLS's. I have them raised an additional eight inches off the ground. The trade-off is I completely lost some of lower bass and some mid-bass weight with the CLS's raised.

Actually JJ, you didn't really lose any bass/midbass. The speaker is still producing what it did before you raised it. Or to put it differently, its bass response/output is the same. What's different is that the bass part of the panels, when near the floor, were radiating into a quarter of a sphere. By raising the panels and (effectively) eliminating the floor plane, the (bottom of the) panels are radiating into a half sphere. So their output is now being spread over twice as much area as before, and more uniformly I might add, since there are no interference (reflected) waves bouncing up off the floor.

To my ears, you need a sub with them raised.

You need a sub in any case because the CLS's output drops to nothing at approx 35Hz. Unlike cone woofers, it doesn't produce lower-but-distorted frequencies. It just stops. A good reason to run them full range (with or without a sub), since nothing is gained by adding a high pass filter. Just let them do their thing.

I am currently running the CLS's full range without a cross-over in the CLS's path. The benefits are more mid-range coherency. Vocals are definitely improved. So far, I think I prefer the panels on the ground. I'm having a hard time trying to get the sub to blend as well as I have in the past when running the panels full range.

When adding a sub, the CLS's should still be run full range (as I already said) and the sub should roll off starting at no higher than 35-40 Hz! That's absolutely all you need to provide the CLS with that extra bit of low frequency extension and to guarantee a flat frequency response across the transition from the CLS's to the sub (i.e. seamless). If you are running just one sub (which is all you really need below 35Hz) with dipolar panels like the CLS, it's best placed between and in line with the panels. If it has a phase adjust, it's best set to 90 degrees, which is the best "phase fit" between the front and rear phase(s) of the panels.

When I have some more time, I will put my cross-over back into to the mix.

You really shouldn't need a crossover if you have a self-powered sub with contour controls.

Maybe raising them 4 or 6 inches instead? Hmmm? Maybe raising them with sand boxes?

10-12 inches is the optimum. Above that you don't get any more benefit.

I am sure the addition of the rigid bracing provided by stands would be another plus in the equation as well. I have thought of making my own braced stands that incorporate sand boxes.

Bracing adds different benefits than raising. You can combine them or not. As a matter of fact, for a long time I had my panels braced only. I unbolted the electronics chassis from the panel and just set it on the floor right behind. Then, with the panel on just two spikes, I attached one end of a five foot long, 3/4" dia. aluminum tube from the rear center of the top rail straight back to the wall behind. That sucker couldn't sway even a millimeter! The transient response and imaging were just amazing . . . . .

Good luck!

 

[jjqiv]

Actually JJ, you didn't really lose any bass/midbass. The speaker is still producing what it did before you raised it. Or to put it differently, its bass response/output is the same. What's different is that the bass part of the panels, when near the floor, were radiating into a quarter of a sphere. By raising the panels and (effectively) eliminating the floor plane, the (bottom of the) panels are radiating into a half sphere. So their output is now being spread over twice as much area as before, and more uniformly I might add, since there are no interference (reflected) waves bouncing up off the floor.

*** Its is changing the way your hear the mid and lower bass. Its not as ripe/full. Sounds less like listening to music live. The peaks and valleys have moved around in the room. ***

You need a sub in any case because the CLS's output drops to nothing at approx 35Hz. Unlike cone woofers, it doesn't produce lower-but-distorted frequencies. It just stops. A good reason to run them full range (with or without a sub), since nothing is gained by adding a high pass filter. Just let them do their thing.

*** Yes, there is something to be gained by a high pass filter. Macro dynamics/slam. Just try to getting any sound system to do justice to the dynamics of a live unamplified drum kit, piano, etc. ***

When adding a sub, the CLS's should still be run full range (as I already said) and the sub should roll off starting at no higher than 35-40 Hz! That's absolutely all you need to provide the CLS with that extra bit of low frequency extension and to guarantee a flat frequency response across the transition from the CLS's to the sub (i.e. seamless). If you are running just one sub (which is all you really need below 35Hz) with dipolar panels like the CLS, it's best placed between and in line with the panels. If it has a phase adjust, it's best set to 90 degrees, which is the best "phase fit" between the front and rear phase(s) of the panels.

*** That is where I have my sub. I don't have variable slope on my sub or variable phase, just 0 or 180. Full range, the CLS's now have a sharper roll-off. I have played with positioning and now have the sub more dialed in. I'm liking it more elevated now. I am leaving it this way for a while ***

You really shouldn't need a crossover if you have a self-powered sub with contour controls.

*** Just like the statements shouldn't need a high pass filter and mid-bass cone array. Adding the cross-over in effect give you a different speaker. In fact raising the CLS gives you a differently voice speaker A different set of trade-off's ***

10-12 inches is the optimum. Above that you don't get any more benefit.

*** That will depend on room size, placement, speaker rake, listening spot. Speaker height is going to affect what part of the speaker you will be hearing the most. More bass is coming from the bottom than the top. More highs from the top than the bottom ***

Bracing adds different benefits than raising. You can combine them or not. As a matter of fact, for a long time I had my panels braced only. I unbolted the electronics chassis from the panel and just set it on the floor right behind. Then, with the panel on just two spikes, I attached one end of a five foot long, 3/4" dia. aluminum tube from the rear center of the top rail straight back to the wall behind. That sucker couldn't sway even a millimeter! The transient response and imaging were just amazing . . . . .

*** Agree the benefits of bracing are entirely different from speaker height. I would find it hard to believe the would be any trade-off from rigidly bracing the panels assuming you are not introducing a large reflective surface behind the panel. Adding a sandbox to the braced stand could add another plus to equation. ***

Good luck!

See starred comments above...

On a whim, I just lined up three pair of skis behind the speakers. Two pair on one side, one pair and my hot water heater sized tube trap on the other. A definite improvement. I am going to have to make some room lenses.

 

[Brad225]

CLSs were delivered today. New panels from ML should be here tomorrow.

Boy, I sure hope the Honey Do List isn't to long this weekend.

 

[lugano]

We know you could not resist and connected them... first impressions ?

Even with old panels you should get a wider than life soundstage...

 

[Brad225]

They are setting in the room as we speak. I will put them together shortly and report back.

On the braided wire attached to the panels, what is rectangular plastic enclosure? It's about 1/2" x 1/2" x 1".

 

[nsgarch]

I don't think so.

*** Its is changing the way your hear the mid and lower bass. Its not as ripe/full. Sounds less like listening to music live. The peaks and valleys have moved around in the room. ***

You say "ripe and full", I say boomy and uncontrolled.

*** Yes, there is something to be gained by a high pass filter. Macro dynamics/slam. Just try to getting any sound system to do justice to the dynamics of a live unamplified drum kit, piano, etc. ***

Not with an electrostatic panel. Been there done that.

*** That is where I have my sub. I don't have variable slope on my sub or variable phase, just 0 or 180. Full range, the CLS's now have a sharper roll-off. I have played with positioning and now have the sub more dialed in. I'm liking it more elevated now. I am leaving it this way for a while ***

The low pass point on your sub is 40Hz +/_ ? Good. Also, run full range, the CLS has a rather gentle rolloff. Starts (flat) at about 85Hz and slopes cown to zero at 30/35 Hz.

*** Just like the statements shouldn't need a high pass filter and mid-bass cone array. Adding the cross-over in effect give you a different speaker. In fact raising the CLS gives you a differently voice speaker A different set of trade-off's ***

The electrostatic portion of the Statement E2 is not, nor was it meant to be, a full range driver like the CLS. The panel of the original Statement was full range, and there was only a volume control for the bass towers.

*** That will depend on room size, placement, speaker rake, listening spot. Speaker height is going to affect what part of the speaker you will be hearing the most. More bass is coming from the bottom than the top. More highs from the top than the bottom ***

Raking back a floorstanding CLS can help somewhat. (Note: the Summit panel is both raked back and elevated about 14") As for frequency distribution over the panel, it is symmetrical for all frequencies: bass is continuous from top to botton, mids come from the two center sections, transitioning to highs from the top and bottom most sections.

*** Agree the benefits of bracing are entirely different from speaker height. I would find it hard to believe the would be any trade-off from rigidly bracing the panels assuming you are not introducing a large reflective surface behind the panel. Adding a sandbox to the braced stand could add another plus to equation. ***

Bracing and/or floor spikes keep any speaker (box enclosure or frame) from reacting to the movement of the cone/panel (i.e. trying to move in the opposite direction to the way the driver is moving.) If the enclosure/frame can move, even a tiny bit, that soaks up energy the driver should be imparting to the air. Additionally, transient response suffers due to the doppler effect of the driver being moved back and forth along with the enclosure/frame. I'm not clear why you think a large reflective surface right behind the CLS would be a good idea. All dipoles work best when located well out from the wall behind them.

On a whim, I just lined up three pair of skis behind the speakers. Two pair on one side, one pair and my hot water heater sized tube trap on the other. A definite improvement. I am going to have to make some room lenses.

You're kidding, right!?

 

[nsgarch]

They are setting in the room as we speak. I will put them together shortly and report back.

On the braided wire attached to the panels, what is rectangular plastic enclosure? It's about 1/2" x 1/2" x 1".

I think you must be referring to the white nylon plug that must be attached to the braid after the braid is threaded through the lower wood rail of the frame. This is the plug that connects the panel to the electronics unit.

 

[Brad225]

The connectors are on the wires these are on the wire.

 

[DTB300]

They look like Radio Shack Chokes. On some applications it can help with RF, but at times it can take away too much high end.

They should be very easy to remove with the clip on one side of the box. Then evaluate the sound and see which way you like better.

Dan

 

[nsgarch]

They look like Radio Shack Chokes. On some applications it can help with RF, but at times it can take away too much high end.

They should be very easy to remove with the clip on one side of the box. Then evaluate the sound and see which way you like better.

Dan

I agree with Dan. Get rid of them unless your system is picking up RFI from your speakers. I never found it to be a problem, even when I had a TV between my CLS's.

 

[lugano]

The connectors are on the wires these are on the wire.

These are ferrite cores, added by the former owner probably. Some years ago it was very trendy to put them all around in order to avoid EMI coming in from the power supplies. I agree with Dan, they could sacrifice some high frequencies on the altar of noise reduction. Take away one of them, turn the volume up all the way without playing any music, and you should hear some low volume background hiss coming from the amplifier. If it's less on the loudspeaker sporting the ferrite, take it away and put it on the other speaker and listen to the same hiss, see if it has changed. If nothing changes, take them away. If it does... choose what to do yourself.

 

[Brad225]

First impression. Holy crap these sound bad. I played with the setup making sure the were both aligned equally. Image-staging was virtually non existent, so I reversed the phase on one of the speakers and there it was.
I played with the alignment a little more and the image was much larger than the SL3s but they sounded like the SL3s with no signal run to the low end. The Vandersteen sub was connected the same as it had been with the SL3s. L & R speaker cables connected to the binding posts on the Aragon 2002 along with the cables to the woofer of the SL3s but it appeared not to work with the CLSs. Changed the cabling from the sub and plugged banana plugs into the CLS binding posts. Turned up the volume and WOW there is hope for these. The sound became fuller, larger and much cleaner.

I only got to listen to one song and had to finish dinner then go back and do some work for the evening, but I will get to play with it some more tonight and will report back. I am going to listen a bit more before I change to the new panels.

For anyone that has panels that are older (these are from 92) are they clear or not. When I look through these they are a bit cloudy not like my SL3s from 96 that are very clear.

But now you all wonder what happened with the WAF? Drum roll please.

Donna walked in to the room while I was adjusting them. Looked around and said "Those aren't that big. They don't look as large as the other ones."
Then - get ready for this one- she said "Why are you moving the old speakers out". My slightly wine clouded brain thinking faster that I had all day I said "Soooo you thought we would have both sets in the room". She said "Yes" with a puzzled look of "Why wouldn't you keep them in here". After 34 years together I'll never totally figure her out.

I am the master of my TV-Music room. Until she comes to her senses and suggests its a little crowded up there. If I can leave the SL3s for HT and use the CLSs for music I won't have to change cables back and forth. I definitely won't move the SL3s out of the room until I have made a firm decision. I think that will void the offer some how.

I'll let you know how it progresses.

Thanks for the responce, I did remove the chokers/ferrite cores from the system but will try them in and out in the future.

 

[DTB300]

I am the master of my TV-Music room. Until she comes to her senses and suggests its a little crowded up there. If I can leave the SL3s for HT and use the CLSs for music I won't have to change cables back and forth. I definitely won't move the SL3s out of the room until I have made a firm decision. I think that will void the offer some how.

The SL3's will make GREAT surround speakers with your CLS!!! Keep them in the room for HT use!!!

Dan

 

[lugano]

For anyone that has panels that are older (these are from 92) are they clear or not. When I look through these they are a bit cloudy not like my SL3s from 96 that are very clear.

Mine are from january 1991 and are crystal clear. Maybe the former owner was a tough smoker, or he tried to clean them by spraying on the panels something he shouldn't have.

Anyway, allow them to play some more time.

As for the WAF... HURRAAAAHHH !!!:rocker: She might have thought "better keep everything in this room instead of compromising other ones, too" LOL

 

[Brad225]

The CLSIIz story continues. I had some time Friday afternoon and evening to listen to them again and see what they were like.

I have to admit my SL3s with the new amps and CD player sounded better than I had ever imagined. So it was not a matter of not liking the sound of them but when I decided to upgrade my 2 channel amps and speakers I was going to wait until I found the specific pieces I was looking for on Audiogon and other sites and when they were available I would buy them.

When I purchased the CLSIIzs I knew I had to replace the panels as the owner said one of them played only half as loud as the other. I felt reasonably confident that was the case but it also could have been the electronics.

As I stated in my previous post I had to reverse the phase on one speaker to make them image in the center. Hopefully one of you can explain that to me. After making sure they were set up parallel to each other both side to side and front to back I listened and one definitely didn't have the volume of the other. I adjusted the balance and it took most of the adjustment to bring the vocals to the center consistently. Even with that the sound was surprisingly stunning. The vocals or instrument at center stage were much larger than I was use to hearing. Maybe 3'-4' wide with the speakers 6'-7' apart (It's tough to decide how big a sound in the air is but that is that's my best guess). The full presents of sound was probably not any wider than with the SL3s in my space but it was so much fuller with more depth and a space around the different sounds. With vocals the harmony was an over lay of different voices from different depths. At times the snap of the strings on a stand up bass would cut through all other sounds as fingers moved up and down the neck. I always like the sound of a bass on the SL3s but this was so much more involving. I guess everything was just more life size. Not necessarily live sounding on all recordings but Diana Krall Live in Paris was very nice.

It was then I knew it was time to put in the new panels because at fifteen years old and one panel having 50% of its sound the other one could not have been in great condition.

On Saturday afternoon I set about replacing the panels. It was very simple process but there was a bit of pucker factor when bending my new panels to fit them into the frames. I reconnected the wires and was ready to fire them up.

There was a bit of apprehension when first pushing the play button on the CD remote after resetting the balance to center. The music started and Nora Jones was in my face ( I wish). The one panel was the whole problem. The vocal was dead center and jumping out with the new panels.

I started as before with both speakers connected in phase and everything was fine. Could panel deterioration be the reason I needed to change the phase on one even though I had changed the phase on the better of the 2 panels.

In the some of the threads when people have had new speakers or new panels they said they sounded painful to horrible. These were by no means perfect but the were so much cleaner and deep than the old ones. That said they are edgy on higher octave vocals and some instruments but over all I can say is "They sound amazing". I can't wait for 50-100 hours to see how they sound.

Considering that these CLSs were about the price of used SL3s and other ML speakers if any of you that have those speakers with the room and ability to acquire CLSs think seriously about it.

The next thing will be to properly anchor them to the floor and stop the mass of frame from moving forward and back. I will report back as things progress.