CLS strengths and weaknesses

[DonAudio]

Hi Everyone:

I'm still a newbie on MLO. Thank you everyone for your kind advice so far. It's nice to share experiences with anything of an audiophile nature with people who have been in the know for a number of years.

I've had many speakers over the years and have been the happiest with planar or electrostatic variety. Started out with Maggies years ago. I recently bought a pair of CLS IIZ's and am very pleased with them. In fact I am in awe of them. Can't seem to get enough of them. I am currently listening to them with the following:

EAR 834P
EAR 834L
Well Tempered TT and tonearm
Koetsu Rosewood Signature
Wadia 301
EAR 509 MK II's

Never have I heard a speaker so completely disappear into a room. Soundstaging is incredibly deep. I'm still working on my left to right balance but it's coming along. Playing with the toe-in. I have at the advice of others purchased a pair of Arcici stands and will be refinishing them before I add them in.

As with every speaker I've ever heard, they do some things well and others; well, not so well. I would be very interested in hearing from fellow CLS owners their truthful critique (good and bad) on their CLS speakers.

 

[C.A.P]

Strengths......
Its a 25 year old design that blows most speakers away today. It was before its time as the amplification was scarce and expensive to run them in their hay day. With todays technology its easy for these to shine.

The ability to blend a sub easily as you have no woofer to panel area to mukkle things up.

High WAF as they are SEXY looking!

Martin Logan still makes panels for replacement

Weaknesss.......
I only have one pair !:ROFL:

GET THEM Arcci stands on and brace the rear well ! You will be amazed !

 

[DonAudio]

I believe I saw in another thread that you were having some replacement panels made? How much are the replacement panels CAP?

 

[FISH_MAN]

I really wish martin logan would continue the cls line in say an anniversary series
so that if you do not want to by used and don't want to spend 20k on the clx
you could easily get a new pair of these beauties. its kind of like a Zippo lighter
its simple it works its responsibly priced and everybody seems to like it so why the hell did they stop making them ! maybe they where to good for the price???

 

[mraudio]

Replacement panels, (CLSII, IIA and IIZ) are $890.00 plus about $20-$30 shipping. Not sure if there is a different price for the original CLS?

 

[tonepub]

I really wish martin logan would continue the cls line in say an anniversary series
so that if you do not want to by used and don't want to spend 20k on the clx
you could easily get a new pair of these beauties. its kind of like a Zippo lighter
its simple it works its responsibly priced and everybody seems to like it so why the hell did they stop making them ! maybe they where to good for the price???

You can ask the folks at ML, but I'm sure some of the reasons would be:

They were somewhat difficult to match up with the perfect system.
When well set up, they were awesome, but if not, pretty dreadful because they were so revealing.

Limited bass response probably drove a lot of people away.

The big panel was somewhat room dependent as well. As a former CLS
owner, I'm sure most of the current owners will admit this is not a speaker you can just "throw in the room".

What you also need to remember is that back in the day the 3500 - 5000 dollars that the CLS cost is like a 10-15 thousand dollar pair of speakers in today's market. So for about 22k, you have the updated model, the CLX.

None of that means the CLS wasn't great. And for many in the right room and system it still is fantastic.

Knowing ML's commitment to their legacy customers, they are probably selling the replacement panels at minimal cost/markup. So if you took that $900 panel, added on a $500 frame, and $1200 worth of interface (perhaps more like $2000); add another $5-700 more for packaging and shipping you'd have speakers with a wholesale cost to the dealer of about $7-10k, which would make retail right around $20k...

 

[User211]

Talking of the CLX, lookie what I have found here in the UK - the CLSIIZ. Alas, they have never had new panels, and despite reassurances that they still work fine, I know I can't get new panels for them...

Actually, I might make some phone calls today to see if I can... pretty sure not, though.

 

[C.A.P]

Everything Jeff said is true ! Like I said too amplifiers in the early 90 were not all that plentiful that did 1 ohm and such. If they did they were un ub tanium in price. The average buyer could posibly afford the speakers but the Rotels or Adcoms or Carver type gear that was flying off the shelf was not gonna run the CLS . Add to the fact that that was about the time of the Micro SUB SAT HT boom . Take and average guy with $10k to spend and he could buy a hell of a 5.1 HT system. Tell me you were not blown away with your first Lexicon demo. Especially with tiny wife acceptable speakers that could mount on the wall.

 

[twich54]

I know I can't get new panels for them...

Actually, I might make some phone calls today to see if I can... pretty sure not, though.

Really ?????????? To the best of my knowledge they are still available from M/L.

 

[User211]

To you guys, sure for about $900. But over here you have to get them through the importer. Try ML direct in the USA and I am sure they will say this to me. Anyway, I have sent my dealer an e-mail. If you can run 'em with an MC275, I am sure my amps will hack it.

 

[Sillycone]

I really wish martin logan would continue the cls line in say an anniversary series

Lets make some Anniversary CLS!

1. Buy new CLS panels from ML.

2. Design a new frame in SolidWorks or similar in aluminum with integrated stands, type Arcici.

3. Contact a local machine shop to do some watercutting.

4. Have the frames anodized in a nice color (red?)

5. The electronics may be the hardest part to deal with, maybe ML
has some spare parts. Otherwise, the transformers can be made by
for example Sowther Transformers in England.

6. Good luck!

 

[eknuds01]

You can ask the folks at ML, but I'm sure some of the reasons would be:

They were somewhat difficult to match up with the perfect system.
When well set up, they were awesome, but if not, pretty dreadful because they were so revealing.

Limited bass response probably drove a lot of people away.

The big panel was somewhat room dependent as well. As a former CLS
owner, I'm sure most of the current owners will admit this is not a speaker you can just "throw in the room".

What you also need to remember is that back in the day the 3500 - 5000 dollars that the CLS cost is like a 10-15 thousand dollar pair of speakers in today's market. So for about 22k, you have the updated model, the CLX.

None of that means the CLS wasn't great. And for many in the right room and system it still is fantastic.

Knowing ML's commitment to their legacy customers, they are probably selling the replacement panels at minimal cost/markup. So if you took that $900 panel, added on a $500 frame, and $1200 worth of interface (perhaps more like $2000); add another $5-700 more for packaging and shipping you'd have speakers with a wholesale cost to the dealer of about $7-10k, which would make retail right around $20k...

Jeff you are right in stating that you can't just toss these into a room. The CLS does need 'help' moreso that other types of speakers. I think you need to spend a good bit of time getting the placement correct. If you add a sub, then that takes some time to get the room treated properly and/or getting the sub adjustments just right.

But the effort is more than worth it! These things are simply awesome when set up right!

 

[tonepub]

I couldn't agree with you more.

I think this speaker really got a lot of people excited about MartinLogan.
I had Acoustat 2+2's at the time and was blown away at how much more transparent the CLS was....

 

[Sillycone]

If you have the feeling that your CLS is a little bass shy, build a little equalizer box, as I have done for my homebuilt full range Els. The components are chosen for a power amp with 10-20 kohm input impedance.

Be careful, this is done on Your own responsibility!

Try the completed circuit on a cheap amp/speaker before you connect
it to your million dollar equipment.

This circuit is not intended for balanced amps!

Cut a stereo male-male RCA cable in half and dismantle it 3 centimeters. Then make two holes in a small plastic box.

Buy the following components:

4 pieces of high quality 1 watt 2,2 kohm resistors.
2 pieces of even higher quality 0,47 uF caps.

Inside the box, connect all the shield strands to a 4-5 cm copper-wire which
will act as ground.

On the incoming side (from preamp) connect a 2.2 kohm resistor on
each signal lead. On the other side of those resistors, junction A, connect a 0,47 uF cap on each resistor. On the other side of those caps, connect the
remaining resistors. Connect the other side of those resistors to the
copper wire. Connect the outgoing (to power amp) signal leads to junction A.
Keep the whole assy as short as possible.

This equalizer will boost lower frequencies lower than 250 Hz about 5 dB.

Good luck, Jonas

 

[mosttoysrk]

Jeff,
Now I am a little apprehensive to let you hear my CLS system. My speakers definitely aren't thrown into the room but my room has zero room treatment.
My wife would definitely not let that happen... also the same reason my CLS's are not on stands. Just a warning when you come over... I do have some great wine though that makes my CLS's sound great!
rich

 

[tonepub]

You don't have to worry. I'm just trying to get a feel for the CLS
rather than write it from memory.

Very few people have dedicated rooms, which is why Im sure ML
went to the hybrid designs.

I just appreciate the help!

 

[DonAudio]

One of the observations I have from many at first impression, "highly detailed" speaker is that after listening for some time I become fatigued with the high frequency content. With the CLS IIZ's (can I generalize by saying CLS?) I have listened for 3-5 hours without ever wanting the evening to end. I found myself listening to some of my longer operas without tiring.

One other observation is probably obvious. When a recording is bad, it really shows up as bad. It has made me change albums already a few times.

Has anyone used a second set of CLS's for low frequency content alone? If you were to build an electrostatic panel that was larger you could probably gain some lower frequency attenuation, but likely have problems controlling the larger surface. I think GS probably toiled with this until he decided on the best compromise. The original intention for the CLS was to get the largest possible surface area (under control) using the best amplifiers available at that time (I'm speculating, he didn't say that to me, LOL), while not having to utilize an electronic crossover thereby avoiding phase problems associated with the crossover and not having to rely on a subwoofer as the speaker is capable of reaching all but the very few last notes of most instruments, i.e. the double bass, the double basoon and the last few keys of the piano.

In talking with other audiophile friends many listeners seem to confuse highly accurate detailed bass with loud mega air-moving thumping. If I can't hear the rasp of the bow on a double bass, or the pluck of the string on a bass guitar than I know the detail is missing or the recording was deficient.

I can hear the CLS's bass output detail but I am aware that the output at low frequencies is down several dB. I am certainly willing to live with this for what the speaker does so well in all the other areas.

 

[roberto]

One of the observations I have from many at first impression, "highly detailed" speaker is that after listening for some time I become fatigued with the high frequency content. With the CLS IIZ's (can I generalize by saying CLS?) I have listened for 3-5 hours without ever wanting the evening to end. I found myself listening to some of my longer operas without tiring.

One other observation is probably obvious. When a recording is bad, it really shows up as bad. It has made me change albums already a few times.

Has anyone used a second set of CLS's for low frequency content alone? If you were to build an electrostatic panel that was larger you could probably gain some lower frequency attenuation, but likely have problems controlling the larger surface. I think GS probably toiled with this until he decided on the best compromise. The original intention for the CLS was to get the largest possible surface area (under control) using the best amplifiers available at that time (I'm speculating, he didn't say that to me, LOL), while not having to utilize an electronic crossover thereby avoiding phase problems associated with the crossover and not having to rely on a subwoofer as the speaker is capable of reaching all but the very few last notes of most instruments, i.e. the double bass, the double basoon and the last few keys of the piano.

In talking with other audiophile friends many listeners seem to confuse highly accurate detailed bass with loud mega air-moving thumping. If I can't hear the rasp of the bow on a double bass, or the pluck of the string on a bass guitar than I know the detail is missing or the recording was deficient.

I can hear the CLS's bass output detail but I am aware that the output at low frequencies is down several dB. I am certainly willing to live with this for what the speaker does so well in all the other areas.

Hola chicos...well all of you know that I am with the CLSs since 87. Yes I still have my first pair...and also I have a second pair that are the latest model CLSIIz. These are the ones that I am listening now, and as always, they are truly controversial. The bass that I get from them is enough when I am listening as audiophile, in two channels. I did try to adjust the bass level with a sub in my room, (Depth i) and when I always said to myself "there" the sub level was at a position where the knob was at seven o´clock, in other words, the sub was doing almost nothing...why? I love the stage, and if I have too much bass energy, the bass player was sitting next to me, and not at the stage. If you read the specs of the CLSIIz it +-2dB from 35Hz to 20KHz. If you set them right, you will get very good bass from them. But we like more energy bass usually and this is a reason why most people would like to have more bass. Also, the CLSIIz use dual custom wound transformers, as they do with the Prodigies and other models. These will help with high frequency response. My position is that there are only just a few notes from the musical instruments that are below 35Hz...the latest note from a Bosendorfer piano is an A= 28.5Hz, and this note usually is never played because the instrument is not too good to produce this kind of bass note. The organ one of the few musical instruments that can go lower...but not always these deep notes are into the music. If you are a jazz lover, the bass is so natural without any sub with these speakers that it is another reason why they have so much lovers too. To my liking and to my ears, I think it is better to lack bass than to be over...and also the true three dimensional sound from them is breath taking...the right size of the instruments, the air between them, the stage, the sense of being there...trust your ears, listen live music without any amplification, in other words, a piano, a guitar, a trumpet, a violin, a cello, a double bass, a singer, and you will say, these are one of the most precise speakers on earth!!! Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[DonAudio]

Wow Roberto, couldn't have said it better myself! Do you play any instruments? I play the cello and the piano. I have played in an orchestra when I was quite a bit younger and so have heard how instruments sound in real life. I have to agree with you on the precision of sound the CLS's are capable of with respect to this point.

What is your system composed of? What are your favorite classical recordings you like to listen to on your stereo?

 

[wallacefl]

I have the CLSZ2s...I am not a fan of Stereophile but their original review years ago on the CLS was pretty telling of some of their sonic issues IMHO. Their highs can be "phasey" making them just a tiny less precise. ML solved this with narrower panels in the Statement E2 and you can see the trickle down in the CLX. If you have the right room they are amazing but I would not own them without a subwoofer. Once you get it in and sorted out you will not want to do without it. I have heard the Summit and mourn its passing. The newer panels have the last% of resolution( yes ...better than the CLS) and if I had one wish for my CLSZ2s...that for the replacement panels they use the newest/best technology they have available (but leave the dark spars in this design)....even if they were to cost more $ or require some crossover/electronic adjustments.