CLS owners question

[Brad225]

I have a question for any of you CLS owners that have the ability to run your panels with the switch in "Full Range" or in "Softening" positioning.

I had always run mine in the Full Range until recently after purchasing a higher quality Vandersteen M5-HPB crossovers for my subs. It crosses over the CLS panels to the 2W subs at 80hz. It made a huge difference from the X-2 dual cap crossovers the subs came with and then having none when I recently changed to XLR cabling.

There was a muddy overlap at the crossover frequency of the 2W's and the CLS panels that was quite pronounced and annoying.

The new crossovers completely removed the problem while strenthening the low end and the clarity of the panels was so much better that the mid frequency of female vocals (like Diana Krall ) and above, were much stronger and forward more than seemed right.

Setting the switch to "soften" brought them back into the proportion with the other parts of the music. Not to say I won't switch back but for now it seems a change for the better.

I realize the room acoustics would also help dictate which position someone would run their panels.

Which position do any of you have the switch set?

 

[mikesinger]

I just ordered a pair of the Vandersteen M5-HPB crossovers for my CLS II's. I am glad to hear they are transparent and work well.

I think think this is the most cost effective solution out there for rolling off the bottom octave of the cls's.

 

[nsgarch]

Brad, first of all, the softening switch (when in the soft position) gently rolls off the high frequencies starting at about 1kHz (0 dB) and down (-3dB) at 20kHz. That is a very gentle slope! The low frequencies are unaffected. For 85% of source material, I find the soft position allows listening all day without fatigue, great midrange and sparkle, and mind you I use a tube amp. In addition, it flattens the impedance curve at highest frequencies which yields a payoff in better HF detail.

As for the low end, I will NEVER understand why anyone would take a full range electrostat like a CLS, and then chop off its feet! Electrostats are NOT like cone monitors which begin to distort when fed low frequencies that they weren't meant to produce. Stats go as low as they can go without ANY distortion and then at some point (around 55Hz for the CLS) they start to fall off slowly to zero (around 35Hz for the CLS) Big deal! There is absolutely no reason to "relieve" a full range stat of bass duties. It will never distort; at some point, it just won't play! But until that point, you want the stats to do all they can because their bass is still tighter than any cone woofer (as far as it goes, that is!) So leave the CLS's be, and only let the sub go up to 30 or 35Hz before you start rolling it off. It will then combine with the stat's rolloff curve to produce a flat frequency response curve across that 45Hz transition frequency.

 

[mikesinger]

The whole idea of rolling off the lows is a simple one.

it frees the big panel to play mids and highs only - much like the ML hybrids.

In talking with ML about this, it allows the panel to play about 2-3 db more (this is alot imo).

After buying the vandy crossovers (there is a 2-3 month wait), I am going to pick up another Descent subwoofer. It will be a deadly combination !!

 

[mosttoysrk]

Mikesinger,
Please post how hard it is to integrate 2 descent subs with the cls's. I currently have 1 descent with my CLS's and was toying with the idea of getting a 2nd but have heard it is harder to make 2 disappear than 1.
thanks

 

[mikesinger]

Mikesinger,
Please post how hard it is to integrate 2 descent subs with the cls's. I currently have 1 descent with my CLS's and was toying with the idea of getting a 2nd but have heard it is harder to make 2 disappear than 1.
thanks

I havent done it yet...I can get the one to intergrate pretty easily and it should be easier with a crossover on the panels. btw, I have dedicated 22x24 listening room).

 

[wallacefl]

Brad, first of all, the softening switch (when in the soft position) gently rolls off the high frequencies starting at about 1kHz (0 dB) and down (-3dB) at 20kHz. That is a very gentle slope! The low frequencies are unaffected. For 85% of source material, I find the soft position allows listening all day without fatigue, great midrange and sparkle, and mind you I use a tube amp. In addition, it flattens the impedance curve at highest frequencies which yields a payoff in better HF detail.

As for the low end, I will NEVER understand why anyone would take a full range electrostat like a CLS, and then chop off its feet! Electrostats are NOT like cone monitors which begin to distort when fed low frequencies that they weren't meant to produce. Stats go as low as they can go without ANY distortion and then at some point (around 55Hz for the CLS) they start to fall off slowly to zero (around 35Hz for the CLS) Big deal! There is absolutely no reason to "relieve" a full range stat of bass duties. It will never distort; at some point, it just won't play! But until that point, you want the stats to do all they can because their bass is still tighter than any cone woofer (as far as it goes, that is!) So leave the CLS's be, and only let the sub go up to 30 or 35Hz before you start rolling it off. It will then combine with the stat's rolloff curve to produce a flat frequency response curve across that 45Hz transition frequency.

...I agree...the CLS is best IMHO when with the minimal amount of electronics between source-speaker....general in room response is good to about 40hz...run the CLS fullrange, put a sub in at 40hz with a 24db crossover, get the phase set right,:music:

 

[C.A.P]

I too agree on the let the run full range.
As for the three db you may gain . I have no problem hitting ninty five db if need be. ......and do it cleanly. If you have it set up right eighty to eighty five db is perfect. The debate over two subs ....that is another story ...


sent by cell phone on a plane........lol

 

[Brad225]

Thanks for the replies.

I like the 2W subs and find they match very well with my CLS IIz's.

I spoke with Richard Vandersteen about building a crossover that would let the panels operate full range and crossover at 35-55hz. He said there was no way he would do this nor would I want to.

If any of you have ever spoken with Richard you know that I am describing his comment much more politely than he is capable of actually speaking to a customer.

Vandersteen subs take their signal from the power amps as do the CLS's. The crossovers are placed between the preamp and power amp. The entire signal below the crossover point is reduced so the panels do not receive a signal of any significance. The circuitry in the subs raised the signal to its power amps and send it to the 3 drivers.

So if any of you have any suggestions as to how to change the crossover point to the subs. I would be interested in trying a comparison.

 

[Retro]

nsgarch

There is two major reason why there actully is a benefit of limiting the workrange of the CLS

1) max. spl

2) total rate of harmonic distortion below 400Hz

Take a look of the attached picture which shows the distortion rate of the original CLS ..., bass region is not that impressive at all (messured at 2.83V input)

 

[CLS2ASTAT]

Interesting Data

Thanks for providing some real world empirical data to support the use of subs with the CLS. Who wouldn't want increased dynamics(headroom and SPL), midrange clarity, lower distortion(IM and harmonic), more slam(especially in the lower fundamentals), and longer panel life. Crossing over @40Hz seems to me to be missing the point and purpose of using subs in the first place. Now, its critical to use the highest quality filters one can afford to enjoy the benefits while minimizing any negatives.

Jerry

 

[nsgarch]

Retro, I don't see anywhere on the read-out that this test was for a CLS speaker. In any case, if it is for a CLS, it was run in November of 1985, on the original panels (no bass sections.) That is why the panels were re-designed, with damped bass sections, to eliminate harmonic distortion.

I'll say it once more: the CLS is a full range electrostatic loudspeaker. Across its frequency range, it has almost no distortion. If you want to crank it up a couple more dB, then get it up on stands so you eliminate floor reflections, which produce bass distortion (mostly) and some lower midrange distortion. Doing this also restores balance between the bass and lower midrange (some people have said that the CLS has a weak lower midrange, but this is a relative condition and goes away once they are off the floor.)

 

[wallacefl]

problem is...like the older Kinergenics towers that sort of created a Mini Statement system: any object placed in close proximity to the CLS panels effects their sound ...:eek1:...you loose placement/soundstage width and hall depth and introduce phase issues/problems which are more nefarious than the distortion in the range noted above. I have heard the E2 statements that use a lower midrange cone array to counter the concern you note above and it/they do work well...but they are a rare exception IMHO....also I have used some very pricey electronic/active crossovers and never found one that does not alter the high pass ie: you will always here it and it will bother you.

 

[nsgarch]

problem is...like the older Kinergenics towers that sort of created a Mini Statement system: any object placed in close proximity to the CLS panels effects their sound ...:eek1:...you loose placement/soundstage width and hall depth and introduce phase issues/problems which are more nefarious than the distortion in the range noted above. I have heard the E2 statements that use a lower midrange cone array to counter the concern you note above and it/they do work well...but they are a rare exception IMHO....also I have used some very pricey electronic/active crossovers and never found one that does not alter the high pass ie: you will always here it and it will bother you.

I think you are very accurate in your observations. My first "subs" were a pair of Wilson Puppies (1991) which were very good, then a pair of the Kinergetics (see photo in on my system page) which I could never get right, and finally, a single ML Depth in the middle, which is perfect. Perfect because a.) it is very small, and b.) I can precisely match its phase to the phase of the panels where it (the sub) sits.

Another thing to remember which I've pointed out before, is that as long as a subwoofer's response stays under around 80Hz, directionality is not perceptable, and so one sub in the middle (or almost anywhere) is sufficient.

 

[Retro]

nsgarch

This is from a test made by the danish High Fidelity magasin,

the messure is made by qulifired people, mic is posistioned in near field and there is used topnotch equipment in the entire chain, so combined with the fact that the dB spl in the test was very low..., the test is more than valid for showing what happends with latest ver. of the CLS panels when they are stretched to there dB spl limit

 

[nsgarch]

Retro, I'm sorry but I stand by my original reply (#12).

 

[mikesinger]

Mikesinger,
Please post how hard it is to integrate 2 descent subs with the cls's. I currently have 1 descent with my CLS's and was toying with the idea of getting a 2nd but have heard it is harder to make 2 disappear than 1.
thanks

something should be noted with adding 2 descent subs into a system. though i havent done this yet, i am pretty sure the following was over looked.

- you have to roll off the panels.
- run each sub as its own channel (ie one sub for the right channel and the other for the left)

both of the above is needed to avoid standing waves and cancellation. the cross lap area of the sub and the panel is a tricky area- you can dump a incredible amount of power only to have it be cancelled.