Cartridge dilema

[FOUNTAIN]

Hello, I wanted to write about some of the issues concerning my analog setup, in particular the Karat 17d3. Since owning this cartridge there has been a noticeable mistracking error that happens on most lp's on the last song and even near the middle on some of the more modulated tracks like Norah Jones "Come Away With Me". Even when listening to a new lp of Bob Dylan there is quite a bit of distortion that comes from his voice. Not too long ago we picked up a new copy of Lyle Lovett and noticed on the second song there again was distortion. More times than not there is some type of mistracking on most lp's and this is among brand new vinyl that has been thoroughly cleaned with my Nitty Gritty. I have had my dealer, Audio Alternative, adjust it twice not to mention many hours of adjusting it myself, but to no avail. On Saturday I took the Karat to Audio Atlanta just to have an outside opinion on its performance and he spent over an hour with the Karat connected to a cartridge analyzer. He too could not get it to perform correctly with my Scoutmaster. Pete, the owner, stated that this was not uncommon among dyanvector carts and vpi "Scout" tables. He let me look on his computer screen as he tried to work out the mistracking errors, but he could only get it to go so far before the distortion became quite apparent. Since Pete carries the VPI line as well he had me listen to an Ortofon 2M Black on the Scoutmaster that was properly setup. The difference was very noticeable in the dynamic parts of the music; where my cart would begin to break up and distort the Ortofon played cleanly with no issues whatsoever. I was tempted to buy that cart right there and be done with it, but patience prevailed.

When the Karat is playing without distorting, it sounds great, but my enjoyment level goes way down when the problem areas appear. It's as if I am wincing in anticipation of the inevitable distortion that is coming on louder crescendos. I have discussed this matter with a couple of members here by PM and they gave some great recommendations as to other carts that would work well. But I wanted to be thourough and put this out there to you guys just in case you had some similar experiences that got solved by either adjusting something or purchasing a different cart that addressed this issue. I believe the Karat is an excellent performer, but the syneregy between it and my scoutmaster with the JMW 9sig arm just do not work well together.

Just to be sure, I did have the cart and table inspected to be positive that neither appeared to be defective in any way. Both recieved a clean bill of health, meaning no visual defects apparent.

If I end up replacing my cart there are a couple of issues that I am concerned about. First, should I go with a low output MC. HOMC cart, or MM/MI cartridge? I use a Dynavector P-75mkII phono preamp and it does sound better when the phono enhancer is engaged, but it can only be used with a LOMC cart. I'm not sure at what voltage this enhancer would not work, but I know it can't be engaged with the dyanvector 10x5 2.5mv. I have never owned a MM cart, should I consider these or does all that really matter? The one at Audio Atlanta sounded very good, but I was listening more for distortion rather than critically. This may be more of a hodgepodge of typing and maybe even a little confusing, I apologize if I left out any obvious details. Any advice you may have would be greatly appreciated and thank you very much to the two gentleman that has already patiently helped.

P.S.
Tom, thanks for the Analog sub-section. I think this is a great idea and this encouraged me to post this question/problem.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

I guess this is a tough situation to say the least. Are you sure the arm and cartridge are setup correctly. I almost sounds like they are not. I do not know the VPI table at all but it sounds like as the arm moves towards the center of the record the distortion increases. If that is the case, it could be anti-skating, for one thing, where the cartridge cantilever and the arm geometry are off and they are fighting - pulling against each other - oposing forces.

As you may well know setting up a cartridge and a tonearm can take a long time but it is worth it in the long run. I would start from the beginning and check the arm height in relation to the cartridge and where it sits on the LP. I would get a cartridge alighment protractor for your table and make sure the cartridge is not too far forward or backward. This will tell you if it is algined at the beginning of a LP and closer to the end. To me this sounds like where your problem lies.

Another posibility is that you can not adjust it all and in that case another cartridge from a different manufacture may solve the issue. This may be expressed as "this cartridge is just not that good or does not sound that well on this table."

Just some thoughts, not all the possibilities but a start.



Jeff

 

[FOUNTAIN]

I guess this is a tough situation to say the least. Are you sure the arm and cartridge are setup correctly. I almost sounds like they are not. I do not know the VPI table at all but it sounds like as the arm moves towards the center of the record the distortion increases. If that is the case, it could be anti-skating, for one thing, where the cartridge cantilever and the arm geometry are off and they are fighting - pulling against each other - oposing forces.

As you may well know setting up a cartridge and a tonearm can take a long time but it is worth it in the long run. I would start from the beginning and check the arm height in relation to the cartridge and where it sits on the LP. I would get a cartridge alighment protractor for your table and make sure the cartridge is not too far forward or backward. This will tell you if it is algined at the beginning of a LP and closer to the end. To me this sounds like where your problem lies.

Another posibility is that you can not adjust it all and in that case another cartridge from a different manufacture may solve the issue. This may be expressed as "this cartridge is just not that good or does not sound that well on this table."

Just some thoughts, not all the possibilities but a start.



Jeff

Thank you Jeff for your suggestions. As far as starting completely over with the cartridge alignment I have maybe 9 or 10 times personally and at least 3 times with professionals. When Pete from Audio Atlanta put it on the cartridge analyzer, that gave me an insight to this not being a setup issue but rather a cart/arm synergy issue. I have contacted dyanvector a couple of times through my dealer and according to him they suggested lowering the arm to below the level mark because this cart likes to ride low. To be honest it did sound better this way, but none of this chaged the tracking distortion. I went with all kinds of VTF's including going up to 2 tenths above the manufactures recommendations and while each setting delivered a different sound, none changed the tracking. Well, except when it was too light, below 1.5g. This table has the mechanical anti-skate and while it can adjust for some issues, the problems still remain. I also tried the wire twisting method that VPI suggests and again the same basic problem is still there. I guess my question is it possible for certain cartridges to not work well on certain arm/tables no matter what is done? And if so, is this maybe one of them? The table and arm could be great, and the cartridge could be an excellent performer but the two together will not function properly when played on the inner grooves or crescendos. Is this possible? Of course there could be varying levels of compatability, but certain combinations are just not meant to be? I don't know; just asking a question I guess. Thanks again Jeff for your reply, and I hope I don't sound like your advice is not noteworthy because it most definetley is. And believe me, if the issue can't be solved this week I will most likely start over again and pray that it will magically align for me.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

First off, no problem. It was more of a thought not a definite fix. I think it may be just be that combination may not work. Is there a VPI forum somewhere so you can post the question there too? I know several others here have VPI tables and maybe they will chime in with experince and advice. I guess I would suggest at this point if you could borrow a cartridge from a friend for a few days and see if the problem changes, is gone or worse. I think then you would know.

Good Luck

Jeff

 

[FOUNTAIN]

I guess I would suggest at this point if you could borrow a cartridge from a friend for a few days and see if the problem changes, is gone or worse. I think then you would know.

Good Luck

Jeff

That's a good idea. I may just ask my dealer if he has a couple of inexpensive carts that he could let me use to see if the problem goes away. Thanks again Jeff for your help.

Glen

 

[User211]

That's a good cart.

Did anyone get a microscope on it to inspect for damage? If not, get it looked at. You can do it yourself by buying a cheap scope - the kind you'd buy for a kid. But you need to make sure that there is enough space between the specimen holder and the lens to actually look at it. This can be a problem.

You can get a crude look with a powerful magnifying glass, or an eyepiece. I'd say an eyepiece is essential for all chaps with an analogue set up.

Also, check the cartridge/arm matching issues at the cartridge database http://www.cartridgedb.com/main.asp - look for compliance matching etc.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

That's a good cart.

Did anyone get a microscope on it to inspect for damage? If not, get it looked at. You can do it yourself by buying a cheap scope - the kind you'd buy for a kid. But you need to make sure that there is enough space between the specimen holder and the lens to actually look at it. This can be a problem.

You can get a crude look with a powerful magnifying glass, or an eyepiece. I'd say an eyepiece is essential for all chaps with an analogue set up.

Also, check the cartridge/arm matching issues at the cartridge database http://www.cartridgedb.com/main.asp - look for compliance matching etc.

Thanks for the link. I don't believe I've ever been there before so that will be a good idea to check it. As for inspecting the Karat, it was looked at under a microscope by Audio Atlanta and cleaned as well. He said that the cart looked excellent with no apparent damage or wear. I have been very careful with this cart so if there is anything wrong with it, then it must be internal. According to Pete, the technician who checked it out, he said that he was not suprised at my tracking problems since many of his customers that have VPI Scout tables often have similar issues when using dynavector carts. This is what caused me to wonder if it will not match up and perform properly no matter what I do. However, my dealer at Audio Alternative is going to forward my issue over to Dynavector and maybe they will have a definitive answer. Or just maybe they will let me try a new one and see if that will solve it. Somehow though I am not very optimistic after hearing what the technician said. I do agree though that when this cart is playing and tracking properly, it can be very pleasing to listen too.

 

[User211]

I think it's unlikely that effective mass/compliance issues would cause symptoms quite as bad as you describe. I concur (after mulling it over in the bath!) that it might be an internal manufacturing defect. I think that cart has a short solid diamond cantilever doesn't it? So it won't be bent etc, and it has been looked at anyway.

The "doesn't work with Scouts" is a bad answer, though. Surely we want to know exactly why. E-mail VPI and ask them if they are aware of any issues?

At the end of the day, the cart just needs the right geometry more than anything else. I can't believe a Scout can't achieve that. If it can do it for other carts, it can do it with yours.

Puzzled, to say the least.

Anyone else any ideas?

 

[Pcar928fan]

Man that totally sucks! Good luck getting it set up right. What a PITA! I have been happy w/ my inexpensive Rega P2/RB300 arm/Exact cart... There are lots better out there though and I would have put your set up in that category. Guess they don't play well together.

Look forward to the final outcome on this. Best of luck getting it all sorted.

 

[User211]

Actually Fountain, thanks for being patient - my first post was duff - I obviously didn't read your first post and take the "inspection" bit in.

I hate it when people do that - so you have my apologies!

I am sure you'll get some more and hopefully better recommendations

 

[FOUNTAIN]

The "doesn't work with Scouts" is a bad answer, though. Surely we want to know exactly why. E-mail VPI and ask them if they are aware of any issues?

I agree, it didn't set well with me either. But I couldn't disagree with him since he has had much more experience setting up carts than I have. His statement, it appears ,was made based on his observation that when he has encountered dynavector carts on Scout tables the customer is usually having tracking problems. Whether or not he has dealt with all levels of their carts I am not sure, but he did not seemed suprised with my issue. I will probably do as you suggested and attack this problem on both fronts and email VPI as well just to cover all my bases. Thanks.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Actually Fountain, thanks for being patient - my first post was duff - I obviously didn't read your first post and take the "inspection" bit in.

I hate it when people do that - so you have my apologies!

I am sure you'll get some more and hopefully better recommendations

No apologies neccessary, I'm just glad to have your help. Thanks again.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Man that totally sucks! Good luck getting it set up right. What a PITA! I have been happy w/ my inexpensive Rega P2/RB300 arm/Exact cart... There are lots better out there though and I would have put your set up in that category. Guess they don't play well together.

Look forward to the final outcome on this. Best of luck getting it all sorted.

I agree it does stink, but I'm sure it will pay off in the end once everything is settled. I'm glad to hear that you are satisfied with your setup, a friend has the same table and loves it. I'll keep this thread updated as more information comes my way. Thanks for the concern.

 

[slowGEEZR]

I think there is some info here that may help. Good luck.


http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/tonearmcartridge.html

 

[MiTT]

I'd recommend an e-mail to VPI directly. I think it's odd that there would be a synergy issue since VPI is in fact marketing a made to spec. Dynavector with the Aries 3. Dave (Twich54) in fact purchased his set up with said cartridge so he may have additional insight.

Not much help I know, it just sounds fishy is all I'm saying.

Could there rather be an issue with overloading your phono stage; i.e. could you be loading for an lower output, but for some reason the cartridge is putting out quite a bit more, thus overloading the input of the phono stage?

Just a thought.

Also, when I was getting VPI to sponsor our national event a couple of years ago this was the e-mail address I'd used when communicating with them...

VPI Customer Service [[email protected]]

I was communicating directly with Sheila, I think she's Harry's wife.

 

[Bernard]

I was communicating directly with Sheila, I think she's Harry's wife.

Yes, she is Harry's wife, and is very pleasant to deal with, as is Harry himself.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

I'd recommend an e-mail to VPI directly. I think it's odd that there would be a synergy issue since VPI is in fact marketing a made to spec. Dynavector with the Aries 3. Dave (Twich54) in fact purchased his set up with said cartridge so he may have additional insight.

Not much help I know, it just sounds fishy is all I'm saying.

Could there rather be an issue with overloading your phono stage; i.e. could you be loading for an lower output, but for some reason the cartridge is putting out quite a bit more, thus overloading the input of the phono stage?

Just a thought.

Also, when I was getting VPI to sponsor our national event a couple of years ago this was the e-mail address I'd used when communicating with them...

VPI Customer Service [[email protected]]

I was communicating directly with Sheila, I think she's Harry's wife.

Hey Mitt, thanks for the help. You are right that it does sound strange since VPI seems to highly recommend dynavector. At least the DV-20x anyway. I also owned the 10x5 with my Scout before I upgraded to the Scoutmaster and it had very similar issues although I did not take as much time with it because I upgraded fairly quickly. For some reason I thought that this is what a less expensive cart could only do so I bought the Karat thinking it would go away. It did not. On a side note, I got an email from my dealer this morning and he will be coming out to my house sometime in the near future to help. For now I will just go through him since the cart and table came from his store. If the problem persists then I'll give them a call along with dynavector. As for the phono preamp I have it with the phono enhancer engaged right now, but it was without it at 100 ohms. This is what dynavector said to use if the phono enhancer was disengaged. Thank you for the email link and hopefully it will all work out.

 

[User211]

Hm I don't think Tim meant cartridge loading - what he meant was the output was too high for the phono stage sensitivity setting, and you were literally causing the phono stage to distort.

I thought that was possible, but unlikely since you probably used the shop's phono stage?

The Ortofon 2M is an MM so it would need a different setting to your Karat. It might be that the phono stage MC circuitry is faulty.

 

[User211]

http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14372

Read this and get to page 2 where DV reliability is called into question.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Hm I don't think Tim meant cartridge loading - what he meant was the output was too high for the phono stage sensitivity setting, and you were literally causing the phono stage to distort.

I thought that was possible, but unlikely since you probably used the shop's phono stage?

The Ortofon 2M is an MM so it would need a different setting to your Karat. It might be that the phono stage MC circuitry is faulty.

I could be misunderstanding and if I am my apologies. The phono preamp is a Dynavector P-75 mkii and from what I understand all of their cartridges should work with this phono preamp including HOMC and MM/MI. The Karat is at .3mv and is supposed to work with the phono enhancer engaged without any distortion, but you can disengage it if you don't like the sound. In that case you would use the 100 ohm setting at 60db or 63db gain, but either setting is supposed to work. It's only a matter of how much gain you desire, according from my dealer and dynavector(I think), neither setting should be a problem. However, I have never tried the 60 db setting and as long as I am trouble shooting then it would only make since to try that. Of course if the phono preamp is indeed faulty then I will need to try a different one just to be on the safe side. I will mention this to my dealer and see if I can borrow one. You know the more I think about it, this could be the problem. The only reason I ruled this out in the beginning was because of the inner groove distortion. I'm not sure that would be from a faulty phono pre unless I have two problems. Hmmmm.....