Call me crazy but they (magic dots) work!

[RichTeer]

Again, my mantra concerning these sorts of tweaks has always been that if you have not experimented with them emperically - how can you say that they don't work or offer benefit? I can appreciate scepticism, but the true skeptic doesn't offer an opinion until he speaks from a position of informed opinion.

As an open-minded sceptic myself, I couldn't agree more, Tim!

 

[twich54]

Who needs "Dots" ?? !!

To heck with the "Dots"...look what 3k in acoustic treatments from Synergistic Research can buy you !!

Sorry Gordon, I couldn't resist !!!

 

[tonepub]

you guys still arguing about this?

 

[twich54]

you guys still arguing about this?

Jeff, can't you tell buy my post that the "Court Jester" has arrived !!

 

[C.A.P]

the following question.

Should manufacturers or their reps have the opportunity to use this forum to discredit other competing products and claim that those who have a different perspective are not reality based, said basis being anchored in their self serving interests to market and sell their product?

GG

NO THEY SHOULD NOT ! That is the exact reason most stay off of them !

I agree 100% if you are a manufacture or a rep on a forum site , and are not a site sponsor you have no right to dismiss another manufactures product and quote your self or your research as the basis for validity. Not only does it look like your selling it cheapens your image. This thred has really changed my mind on posting my tweaks and designs ! The idea of this site is not to sell a product but for us mere mortals to help each other out of situations we have all ran across. This is what happens to all sites when manufactures or reps get on a forum site. They become the local expert all the while pushing there product down our throats for FREE!

Sorry I'm very unhappy how this thred turned out !

Its one thing when members discredit a idea or tweak, but its another when a manufacture does it so vehemently its insulting to the member!

 

[RichTeer]

I don't think those things are large enough to have any affect at any frequency in a normal size room. Acoustics is all about the properties of the surfaces in the room. If you have 1,000 square feet of mostly reflecting surface and you cover 0.0001 percent of that with a different type of surface, the net change in dB will be too small to have a noticeable affect.

--Ethan

What you're neglecting to consider here, though, is that the dots aren't claiming to affect the sound directly themselves, but by damping the vibrations of something bigger (in Gordan's case, his window).

I agree that something very small is unlikely to have an effect on the sound, but I think it's very plausible that that same thing could have a large effect when being used to damp another object's vibrations.

In other words, dots on their own = little or no effect, but dots damping window vibrations = noticable or big effect.

 

[jtwrace]

Yes, unless the high-end wire has extra contraptions on it to purposely degrade the sound, which I have seen. I've also seen flat wire that has so much capacitance it can audibly degrade the high end when used with some types of power amplifiers. But any competent wire that is thick enough for the task will sound like any other competent wire that is thick enough for the task. This is easily measured! It's also trivial to record the signal at the speaker terminals with each wire and do a null test on the files. That will reveal all differences, including those "science doesn't yet know how to measure."

If you consider the incredible complexity of modern electronics such as CPUs and LCD displays etc - that is fully understood by engineers - it seems unlikely that some basic property of ordinary wire would have escaped their attention. Everything about an audio cable can be described using only resistance, inductance, and capacitance. If high-end wire companies really were onto something you'd expect them to have some hard data showing the improvement. Yet they never do. All they have is flowery prose and photos of middle aged men dancing.

--Ethan

Ethan-

I'm intrigued by your thought process. Obviously you believe in science 100%. Right? My full time job is looking at data from lab work as well as dynamic testing. Unfortunately, the data does NOT always correlate. Of course, there are many variables that I cannot simulate (ie, weather, track condition...) The bottom line is that even in my case where we spend millions of dollars it still comes down to what the race car driver "feels," NOT always the data. So, in this case it's about what we hear NOT what the data says. right?

Next, out of curiousity, what does your reference system consist of? Do you really use inexpensive speaker wire and Cat 5e (plenum rated) as your interconnect? I look forward to your response.

Last, I hope that you will also respond when Ron from Marigo says what he believes. thoughts?

Best-
jtwrace

 

[Beakman]

"If you speak the truth, have a foot in the stirrup."

 

[Horchem1972]

Carver Challenge--His actually sounded better.

Not to get off topic (but what the heck), if you go back and read the issues of The Absolute Sound about the Carver challenge, he was able to come close, but not duplicate the sound of the expensive amps with the budget amp....

I recently read the article by J Gordon Holt in Stereophile and they stated that after all the adjustments,they could not tell the differance.There was times that they even preferred his amplifier.If anyone is interested,I can e-mail you the full article in a PDF file.

 

[Diamonds]

I posted this in another forum but I will post here because I think it is crazy.

Guy number 1: The dots are amazing

Guy number 2: You are full of crap

Guy number 1: No I can hear it, you are dumb

Guy number 2: No you are dumb because I have a degree in smartness

Guy number 1: I don't care about your degree in smartness I know what I hear
and you are dumb

Guy number 2: No you are dumb because I have a degree in smartness and you wasted your money

Guy number 1: No you are dumb because my system sounds better and I am so smart

Guy number 2: No you are dumb because my smartness degree proves you are dumb

Guy number 1: I hate you

Guy number 2: I hate you more

Guy number 1: I hate you the mostest

Guy number 2: Whatever

Does everyone see how silly this is? Gordon if you like the dots - Godspeed - Ethan if you hate the dots and think they are dumb don't buy the dots. I guess at least everyone was honest about their opinions.

I am pretty sure the beers that I had at dinner tonight make my system sound better. FYI

 

[TomDac]

I posted this in another forum but I will post here because I think it is crazy.

Guy number 1: The dots are amazing

Guy number 2: You are full of crap

Guy number 1: No I can hear it, you are dumb

Guy number 2: No you are dumb because I have a degree in smartness

Guy number 1: I don't care about your degree in smartness I know what I hear
and you are dumb

Guy number 2: No you are dumb because I have a degree in smartness and you wasted your money

Guy number 1: No you are dumb because my system sounds better and I am so smart

Guy number 2: No you are dumb because my smartness degree proves you are dumb

Guy number 1: I hate you

Guy number 2: I hate you more

Guy number 1: I hate you the mostest

Guy number 2: Whatever

Does everyone see how silly this is? Gordon if you like the dots - Godspeed - Ethan if you hate the dots and think they are dumb don't buy the dots. I guess at least everyone was honest about their opinions.

I am pretty sure the beers that I had at dinner tonight make my system sound better. FYI

WOW.. couldn't have said this any better.

 

[Tube60]

WOW.. couldn't have said this any better.

Hey Tom!
To Diamond's dissertation I could suggest:
Oh yeah? Well my dad can beat up your dad!:ROFL:
Heard that a few times in elementary shool.....

 

[Horchem1972]

Dots or no dots

If he is happy with his purchase that is all that matters.It is his money and he has the right to spend it on what he wishes.

 

[User211]

NO - you don't get a square wave out. That's the DAC's job to create a perfect sine wave from those two samples. And it is possible. And it is exactly what is done.

The point, Adam, is that you only have 2 genuine samples. All else is constructed fantasy by the DAC i.e. not real. 20 genuine samples would give a far more accurate representation of what is going on.

It's probably this kind of thing that makes CD quality (or less) digital sound less real than high quality analogue especially at high frequencies. Then again, I could be wrong

 

[Ethan Winer]

In other words, dots on their own = little or no effect, but dots damping window vibrations = noticable or big effect.

If those dots are able to damp a window's resonance, the effect will be clearly visible in a waterfall plot. I've never seen such a graph for those dots, or any other too-small tweak products. But if you or others here know of such data please post a link.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

Obviously you believe in science 100%. Right?

I don't think "believe" is the best word, but yes, of course. The efficacy of science is proven every day in our cell phones, FM receivers, open heart surgery, lack of smallpox and polio, digital photo editing software, and on and on.

My full time job is looking at data from lab work as well as dynamic testing. Unfortunately, the data does NOT always correlate.

If you're dealing with weather predictions, that is literally a million times more complex than anything that happens inside audio gear and room acoustics!

what does your reference system consist of? Do you really use inexpensive speaker wire and Cat 5e (plenum rated) as your interconnect?

I have two systems. One is my home recording studio, where I have a pair of very large professional studio JBL 4430 loudspeakers, bi-amped, and driven by a pair of Crown power amps with just over 1 KW between them. I use 16 gauge zip cord between the power amps and JBL speakers, and standard pro grade balanced wiring between all of the components.

My other system is 5.1 surround in my living room. The speakers there are Mackie 624s, which are internally biamped and need no speaker wire. So I use regular consumer grade RCA cables between the speakers and my Pioneer receiver. I also have a killer dual-12 SVS subwoofer that gets down to 18 Hz.

If you're ever in my neck of the woods, please stop by for a visit and demo. :music:

I hope that you will also respond when Ron from Marigo says what he believes.

Of course. Why wouldn't I?

--Ethan

 

[User211]

If those dots are able to damp a window's resonance, the effect will be clearly visible in a waterfall plot. I've never seen such a graph for those dots, or any other too-small tweak products. But if you or others here know of such data please post a link.

--Ethan

Exactly, Ethan. That's pretty much what I posted earlier with my "knocking" test. Unfortunately, Gordon wasn't able to try it as they are very sticky. These dots are 2 inches in diameter and 1/4 of an inch thick and made of an appropriate material. They will act as a damper.

Are you conceding defeat with this post? I expect you'll need to see some measurements to do so...

Much will depend on the size of the panes and their fundamental resonant frequencies. But I suspect a number of loud transients at varying frequencies would trace precisely where they are effective. Both before and after treatment.

BTW: I have edited away from history a comment made in an earlier post. I hope you didn't take offense to it. It was made after consumption of half a bottle of Disaronno! Amaretto liqueur - sickly sweet but very nice with it!

 

[Gordon Gray]

Too funny!

Diamonds,

Hilarious post and, standing back from it all, quite accurate. Well I guess this thread got some traction. I appreciate Jason contacting Ron directly and Ron's willingness to provide his perspective.

We will see.

GG

 

[Ethan Winer]

These dots are 2 inches in diameter and 1/4 of an inch thick and made of an appropriate material. They will act as a damper.

The largest dots I see on THIS page are 40 mm in diameter, or about 1.5 inches. But even 2 inches in diameter, and 1/4 inch thick, will not cover enough surface to make a measurable or audible change unless you apply literally hundreds of them.

Are you conceding defeat with this post? I expect you'll need to see some measurements to do so...

Defeat? That's a joke right? And yes, of course I need hard data. That everyone else does not demand hard data amazes me.

Much will depend on the size of the panes and their fundamental resonant frequencies.

Excellent point. A large window vibrates at a relatively low frequency where small dots have no meaningful affect.

I have edited away from history a comment made in an earlier post. I hope you didn't take offense to it. It was made after consumption of half a bottle of Disaronno! Amaretto liqueur - sickly sweet but very nice with it!

I have no idea what post you mean. I have a pretty thick skin with this stuff, as you might imagine. But you'll notice I never call anyone names. Diamond's post has the skeptic saying "You are full of crap" and "you are dumb" and "I hate you" which I would never say even though others sometimes say stuff like that to me.

--Ethan

 

[Gordon Gray]

Ethan,

For what it is worth and I recognize, from your perspective, it's not worth anything, but the dots I have on my window are 2-5/16" in diameter.

Switching topics and a question for you.

Unlike yourself, my sense is that the vast majority of club members do not use 16 ga. zip speaker wire in their systems and have chosen to use other "esoteric" speaker wire because they believe it sounds better.

This subject has been discussed ad nauseum in the high end press and validated by many people who have tried different wire and found that it does make an audible difference.

Any thoughts on this issue?

GG