I concur with Gordon, now if you want respectable performance at a reasonable price combined with ease of setup and integration I vote for the 'DD' series of subs from Velodyne. I am more than pleased with my DD-15
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Best Sub for ML's speakers without woofer??
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I concur with Gordon, now if you want respectable performance at a reasonable price combined with ease of setup and integration I vote for the 'DD' series of subs from Velodyne. I am more than pleased with my DD-15
To clarify (and I know Gordon knows this), it needn't be a "sub" out; a second set of pre-outs will do and, failing that, Y-adapters. All assume a powered subwoofer with line inputs.
Which have an EQ advantage over the JL as the DD's have a more flexible built-in EQ (multi-band on DD's vs. single, worst peak filter on the JL).
donberry
Active member
I do not have those speakers, but bought a MartinLogan Abyss for a pair of magnepans I had. Worked great. I figured if it was fast enough for esl's......
I just mention this as I got mine for a huge discount as it was "last years" model. May still find one floating around for a great price.
My other choice was a REL as I have heard they work well with planars and esl's.
I just mention this as I got mine for a huge discount as it was "last years" model. May still find one floating around for a great price.
My other choice was a REL as I have heard they work well with planars and esl's.
Varun
Member
Thanks for the info everyone. I'm really happy to hear this!
autoformer
Well-known member
Just to clarify what others have said, there are typically three ways to connect your sub. The Descent i allows for all three types of connection.
1) Connected to the speaker level outputs of your power amplifier
2) Connected to the line-level outputs of your preamp.
3) Connected to the LFE output of your AV processor
If you are setting up your sub in a theater, then you must use the LFE output to your sub. There are some ways around this. If your processor supports it, you may be able to route low frequency information to your front speakers. But typically, you will want to use the LFE output.
There are varying opinions on the best way to connect your sub in a "2.1" system. In other words, right and left speakers plus a sub. Some advocate connecting the sub to the preamp (#2 above), while others advocate connecting to your amplifier outputs (#1 above). Most good quality subs allow for either type of connection. I connect mine via the speaker level outputs because I want the signal to the sub to reflect the character of my pre+power amp, not just the pre alone.
I had an exchange with Martin Logan about connecting the Descent i for both 7.1 and 2.1. The 2.1 setup alone is easy to understand but I wanted to know how the Descent i is designed to work when both speaker-level and LFE signals are present at the same time. Here is their answer:
-------
"Thank you for your phone call yesterday. Please see below the response from our engineering department regarding your question about how the subwoofer handles signal from two separate sources at the same time. I hope this answers your questions.
The scenario can work - there may be some level matching issues to overcome
The subwoofer will low pass filter the signal from the speaker level inputs.
the LFE input will not be low pass filtered
The unfiltered LFE will be summed with the filtered speaker level input
recommended Setup:
Set processor Front speakers to Large - no high pass filter enabled
Using music - configure subwoofer level, Lowpass filter and phase control
Using the processor speaker level setup noise - Set the LFE level to match the other 5 channels
(The LFE level should be fine tuned in the processor not at the subwoofer level control)"
1) Connected to the speaker level outputs of your power amplifier
2) Connected to the line-level outputs of your preamp.
3) Connected to the LFE output of your AV processor
If you are setting up your sub in a theater, then you must use the LFE output to your sub. There are some ways around this. If your processor supports it, you may be able to route low frequency information to your front speakers. But typically, you will want to use the LFE output.
There are varying opinions on the best way to connect your sub in a "2.1" system. In other words, right and left speakers plus a sub. Some advocate connecting the sub to the preamp (#2 above), while others advocate connecting to your amplifier outputs (#1 above). Most good quality subs allow for either type of connection. I connect mine via the speaker level outputs because I want the signal to the sub to reflect the character of my pre+power amp, not just the pre alone.
I had an exchange with Martin Logan about connecting the Descent i for both 7.1 and 2.1. The 2.1 setup alone is easy to understand but I wanted to know how the Descent i is designed to work when both speaker-level and LFE signals are present at the same time. Here is their answer:
-------
"Thank you for your phone call yesterday. Please see below the response from our engineering department regarding your question about how the subwoofer handles signal from two separate sources at the same time. I hope this answers your questions.
The scenario can work - there may be some level matching issues to overcome
The subwoofer will low pass filter the signal from the speaker level inputs.
the LFE input will not be low pass filtered
The unfiltered LFE will be summed with the filtered speaker level input
recommended Setup:
Set processor Front speakers to Large - no high pass filter enabled
Using music - configure subwoofer level, Lowpass filter and phase control
Using the processor speaker level setup noise - Set the LFE level to match the other 5 channels
(The LFE level should be fine tuned in the processor not at the subwoofer level control)"
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darn these Depths selling like hotcakes on audiogon...been looking everyday for past 2 wks as all 3-4 of them previous on audiogon sold quickly...the one day I didnt check(today), one came up and sold same day...why does everyone want a Depth so badly?...hmmm.
If you're not already doing so, click on the "Buy" tab at the top of the A-gon page, then click "Subwoofers". IME, this method will show brand-new listings a few hours before they show up by searching on specific criteria like Martin Logan or Depth.
autoformer
Well-known member
Who knows? The sub everyone should be after, since it's going out of production soon, is the REL B1. I like my Descent i's sheer power for movies, but for music in a 2.1 system, I prefer the B1.
Gordon
Well-known member
I tried to integrate one of these with my Spires and could never get it right. It is a fabulous sub in my HT, but just couldn't make it work for me in 2 channel. Be aware it is the size of a dorm fridge and can pull drywall down if not careful!!
Gordon
autoformer
Well-known member
To be clear, you're saying you prefer the REL more for HT than 2.1?
The Descent i has lots of power and impact. But it's lack of separate level controls for LFE and speaker level inputs make it more difficult to integrate in a dual purpose system.
The Descent i has lots of power and impact. But it's lack of separate level controls for LFE and speaker level inputs make it more difficult to integrate in a dual purpose system.
Dynesuffer
Member
Hey everyone,
I have 2 Epik Empires and they sound great for my setup they integrate very well for music and movies, you could go with a epik Legend which is the little brother to the Empire seeing how you said you did need too much bass this little guy weights 80 pounds and has 2x12 inch subwoofers and its only $499. But dont just listen too me this is just my opinion everyone's giving you different options but only one is right for you.
You can always try and test the subs and if you dont like them send them back, Epik have just always been right for me so I thought I could just give you another option.
Hope this helps.
Josh
I have 2 Epik Empires and they sound great for my setup they integrate very well for music and movies, you could go with a epik Legend which is the little brother to the Empire seeing how you said you did need too much bass this little guy weights 80 pounds and has 2x12 inch subwoofers and its only $499. But dont just listen too me this is just my opinion everyone's giving you different options but only one is right for you.
You can always try and test the subs and if you dont like them send them back, Epik have just always been right for me so I thought I could just give you another option.
Hope this helps.
Josh
Gordon
Well-known member
Yep, The REL found a home in the HT and the JL's in the 2.2 system. Perhaps it was the ported design I found hard to work with. I tried for months trying to blend them. While I was able to achieve some level of satisfaction, I wanted it better.
Gordon
hifiaudio2
Well-known member
Just wondering, would using a modern processor with Audyssey not do a good job of integrating a pair of CLXs with the sub using the LFE input and setting the CLXs to small with a crossover of 55-60 hz or so?
gordonmenninger
Well-known member
Look no further than the JL Fathom F113 / 212 / or Gotham! Best sub money can buy imho. It blows the ML subs away and integrate very nicely with Martin Logan's!
Audiophiliac
Well-known member
I +3 or +4 the JL subs. We got a pair of CLS in on trade and put them in our showcase theater room for kicks. And although the Classe SSP and Rotel class D amps are not the best sonic match for the CLS, the JL Gotham integrates beautifully! Love those JL subs.
miatancdan
Well-known member
raygunn
Well-known member
After 7+ years, in my most recent experiences with the CLS 2z's I have found...
that the answer to this question may very well lie with what main power amplifier you are using to drive the panels!
If you look at my System (yes, I need to update it again...), you will see that I have the CLS 2z's lifted onto Sound Anchor stands, 2 Depth subs, and the Sunfire Signature Series II Architect chassis amp.
The Bob Carver designed amplifiers have always been my reference because they simply don't care about the impedance load. They handle it cleanly and with great power
reserves. They are also the only amps I ever tried that didn't overheat or go into "protect" mode due to the impedance load.
Last year I had the opportunity to obtain a Pass Labs X350.5 amplifier and this was somewhat of a game-changer. Not only can it easily handle the low impedance load, but this amplifier actually enables the CLS to deliver REAL bass output!
This realization has been a complete surprise to me. The Pass clearly maintains ultra wide bandwidth and linearity even in the most troubling of circumstances and it definitely shines through on the CLS's.
As a result of this new-found superby clean electrostatic bass as well as extensive attempts to re-tune, I came to the conclusion that the the CLS' mate perfectly with a SINGLE Depth sub. The second one is not only unnecessary, but detracts from the overall integration of the system.
The system has been configured this way since December and everyone that has cycled through and heard it has agreed that the bass quality and integration is far better.
...go figure!
Cheers,
Ray
that the answer to this question may very well lie with what main power amplifier you are using to drive the panels!
If you look at my System (yes, I need to update it again...), you will see that I have the CLS 2z's lifted onto Sound Anchor stands, 2 Depth subs, and the Sunfire Signature Series II Architect chassis amp.
The Bob Carver designed amplifiers have always been my reference because they simply don't care about the impedance load. They handle it cleanly and with great power
reserves. They are also the only amps I ever tried that didn't overheat or go into "protect" mode due to the impedance load.
Last year I had the opportunity to obtain a Pass Labs X350.5 amplifier and this was somewhat of a game-changer. Not only can it easily handle the low impedance load, but this amplifier actually enables the CLS to deliver REAL bass output!
This realization has been a complete surprise to me. The Pass clearly maintains ultra wide bandwidth and linearity even in the most troubling of circumstances and it definitely shines through on the CLS's.
As a result of this new-found superby clean electrostatic bass as well as extensive attempts to re-tune, I came to the conclusion that the the CLS' mate perfectly with a SINGLE Depth sub. The second one is not only unnecessary, but detracts from the overall integration of the system.
The system has been configured this way since December and everyone that has cycled through and heard it has agreed that the bass quality and integration is far better.
...go figure!
Cheers,
Ray
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