Best material for CLS stands

[robertawillisjr]

I am about to seal the deal on a pair of CLS. This may belong in tweaks, but I'll try here first.

I know that a set of stands are needed to extend the bass. I don't like the sound anchors or arici stands. I could use MDF, Maple, Concrete blocks or who knows what else. I saw the stands shown in the tweaks section but want a wide range of opinions. The weight of the stands is not a factor.

Opinions?

 

[C.A.P]

A lot of factors play into the CLS . Just haphazardly raising them up and not bracing the rear will cause oscillation on the frame which will in turn be heard as distortion or phase and cross cancellation. There are a few Arcci being the best that was of the time. Sound Anchors work but are a bit to high IMHO. I made mine and did a lot of testing on why and how the stands should work with the speakers. Its no coincidence that my design puts the panel at the same height as the CLX . ML knew that the CLS needed stands and actually recommended the ARCCI stand. Although a good design it was not perfect. Wood can be used however I have tested a few wood stands. Its got to be made of Hard rock Maple to get the best of all worlds. I have one made for a sub.
Good luck and look at my stands in my system. They are form with function . !

 

[DTB300]

Getting the middle spar up to ear height is the best benefit IMO

Try different things in your room to see what you like. Wood, concrete, etc. But try things at different heights to hear what the effects are. Also remember to adjust and change the panel angle (front/back) when rasied for changes.

Were not going to get into the panel sway thing again are we

 

[Jeff Zaret]

I agree with Dan here. The middle spar should be about ear height. This will give you the best overall presentation of sound from the panel. So one also has to take in to calculation the height of the chair/couch you are sitting in when listening. You can usually "eye-ball" this when buying or building your own. Also, the change in speaker height will also change the reflection and room interaction so you need to aware of all of this so it is how you want it not how someone else tells you.

I hope we do not go down the road of panel sway again too. Mine do not move! I have rested very light objects balanced on top and have them on spikes on my stands and they do not move. I think what should be done, is to reduce the resonance between the panel/stator frame and the wood frame.

My stands are made of oak to match my frames and are filled with sand. You feel no vibration and loud volumes on the legs!

Jut my 2 cents.

Jeff

 

[C.A.P]

Jeff, Dan....
Its not panel sway that causes the discoloration in sound as was disgusted in a previous thread. Its vibration caused by the stators resonating the whole frame. If you do not think the frame does not resonate , your fooling your self! Any way to stop the frame from creating its own distortion or interference is a positive. REAR braces are not just for sway. ANY one who has heard my CLS say the same thing. I have heard them before, but never this detailed and solid. .

Now frame height I agree with Jeff, The panel should be at mid ear level. I am a believer in 90* rake EXACTLY. Very little toe. However that fits MY room and may not be for you. Experimentation and listening to your taste will get you there. Sound Anchor is the only manufacture who still makes a stand for the CLS. (Not my cup of tea) However; like my self , a few here have rolled their own with good results.

 

[DTB300]

Jeff, Dan....Its not panel sway that causes the discoloration in sound as was disgusted in a previous thread.

Yeah we "three" know that....LOL....just had to go there.....

Now frame height I agree with Jeff, The panel should be at mid ear level. I am a believer in 90* rake EXACTLY. Very little toe. However that fits MY room and may not be for you.

Tilt/Rake/Toe can make a big difference in sound presentation depending on seating position. Good point made that each has to decide on their preferred positions.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Jeff, Dan....
Its not panel sway that causes the discoloration in sound as was disgusted in a previous thread. Its vibration caused by the stators resonating the whole frame. If you do not think the frame does not resonate , your fooling your self! Any way to stop the frame from creating its own distortion or interference is a positive. REAR braces are not just for sway. ANY one who has heard my CLS say the same thing. I have heard them before, but never this detailed and solid. .

So the fact that I am using Dynamat to absorb the vibration from the stator which limits the transfer from the frame is not a good idea? Seems to work really well.

Jeff

 

[C.A.P]

So the fact that I am using Dynamat to absorb the vibration from the stator which limits the transfer from the frame is not a good idea? Seems to work really well.

Jeff

Jeff, Im lost ? Your using Dynamat where? I did mod the panels with a strip of Neoprene on the back area where the panel and wood meet. Is that what you are referring to.

What I am saying is the panel will vibrate and create distortion and oscillation. Put your hand on the frame and feel it. When stiffened it makes a huge difference in imaging and detail.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Cap,
Instead of using Neoprene I used Dynamat and it reduced the vibration transfer to the frame. The vibration will never go away with this design. This is not to scare anyone. We are talking about a small amount here. What we are all striving for is to get the last bit out of everything we have. ML was/is well aware if the vibration transfer from the panel to the frame and did solve the vibration issue with the design of the CLX. I would venture a guess and say that all ML's have this issue to varying degrees. I would also think that if it was enough/significant to make a difference, ML would have done something sooner.

Just my expert ( "ex=unknown and 'pert aka spurt, is a shot in the dark) opinion

Jeff

 

[DTB300]

Instead of using Neoprene I used Dynamat and it reduced the vibration transfer to the frame.

Jeff and I have employed this solution on our stators for awhile now. But like he said it is just another tweak for the panel/frame transfer to get that extra little bit.

 

[robertawillisjr]

Okay. I am omitting the prices, but here is part of an e-mail received from Mapleshade (Pierre). I think that this is appropriate here. If not, please remove and I'll post elsewhere (Tweaks?)

"Robert,

I have many years of happy listening experience using the CLS as my studio monitors--I still think it is, by a wide margin, the best speaker Martin-Logan ever made.

My recommendation is to mount them on a custom size--28"x18"-- pair of our Maple Speaker Plinths or, even better, on a custom pair of our Ne Plus Ultra Speaker Bases; there is no need for the diagonal bracing we use on our Epiphany stands for Magneplanar speakers. Maple platforms under the CLSs will be a major upgrade. If your speakers are on a concrete floor (with or without carpet) or a modern plywood floor, the maple stands will be a night and day transformation.

I recommend the 4" platforms, particularly with concrete or plywood floors--though 2" will certainly give you a satisfying upgrade. I also recommend you replace the skinny, flimsy Martin-Logan spikes with our massive brass Threaded Heavyfeet. We can easily match the factory thread size.
"

I thought this was an interesting take.

 

[Craig]

I'm sure Mapleshade offers a nice platform to set the CLS on and elevates it by 4" and this alone may provide some improvement. However, any tweak that omits a method to make the frame rigid is lacking. The CLS is not a very stable speaker at all. It can very easily be pushed over just a bump from behind or a two inch forward push with you finger. In addition to this lack of stability comes a lack of rigidity in the frame. There are two improvements ML made to the CLX that they learned from the CLS design. First they added a panel at the bottom front of the speaker to prevent a forward fallover. The second was to add the wing in the back to tame the dipole/bipole (?) waves coming from the rear of the speaker and canceling the front wave.

The only way make the frame rigid is to brace it. If the frame is free to vibrate sympathetically by the action of the panel then that is sound energy being wasted on vibrating the frame. The movement of the frame is small but then so are certain sound waves, particularly the high frequencies. The panel should be moving air at various rates of speed and not wasting energy by moving the frame.

Same principle applies to cone/box speakers. Only the cone should move and not the speaker cabinet. Typically the speaker cabinet is heavy and rigid enough that this usually isn't a problem. The wing added to the rear of the CLX provides for a more rigid frame than a CLS. The CLX frame overall is a little more substantial.