Are the new panels better?

[Peter_Klim]

Are the replacement panels for the older model ML speakers ( early 2000's and older) any better than the originals? In particular, I am interested in the aspect of longevity. If so, how much better? Originals are said to last an average of 11-15 years.

 

[User211]

I raised a thread on panel longevity - search is your friend, as Tom says. It's arbitrary. I don't think there has been a technology change that will result in newer panels lasting any longer. If there had, ML would have been waxing lyrical over it in their marketing. Haven't seen any evidence of that.

 

[roberto]

I raised a thread on panel longevity - search is your friend, as Tom says. It's arbitrary. I don't think there has been a technology change that will result in newer panels lasting any longer. If there had, ML would have been waxing lyrical over it in their marketing. Haven't seen any evidence of that.

Hola. I had being representing Martin Logan for over 24 years and I can say that there is a big change for bebtter with the new materials and coating with new panels. 20 years ago, sometimes the coating of the panel was so humidity dependable that only last 2 months here. Yes, I had a nightmare, but never was left alone, and always had the great support from ML service team. Costa Rica somehow became the lab's rabbit for Jim Power. We did try so many new coats and materals until at the Factory, the service and design team build a special room where they could change humidity and temperature dramatically to do the testing for these new materials and coating. The nightmare was gone in the early 90s... And todays panels are totally different than they were and are safe...todays panel diaphragm is so light, that weights less than the air that it moves!!!... Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[User211]

Hola. I had being representing Martin Logan for over 24 years and I can say that there is a big change for bebtter with the new materials and coating with new panels. 20 years ago, sometimes the coating of the panel was so humidity dependable that only last 2 months here. Yes, I had a nightmare, but never was left alone, and always had the great support from ML service team. Costa Rica somehow became the lab's rabbit for Jim Power. We did try so many new coats and materals until at the Factory, the service and design team build a special room where they could change humidity and temperature dramatically to do the testing for these new materials and coating. The nightmare was gone in the early 90s... And todays panels are totally different than they were and are safe...todays panel diaphragm is so light, that weights less than the air that it moves!!!... Happy listening,
Roberto.

Well the poll speaks for itself. Panel life is arbitrary... I've raised the poll from the dead. Maybe we can get some more data.

 

[roberto]

Well the poll speaks for itself. Panel life is arbitrary... I've raised the poll from the dead. Maybe we can get some more data.

From the 2000, and had never changed a stat panel!... all the problems were because the A.C. cable was disconnected, or a power supply failure. Not the panels. I do not know how many Vantages are here, or Summits, but I assure you that are some... and not a problem regarding stat panels... and I hope this continues the same. As I recall now, I did shower one pair of Summits, due to they had a lot of dust. The owner had a lot of construction dust, he rebuild part of his house and they were not covered and they were exposed to all that dust!... but this is a different issue. Not a panel failure as I recall since then... yes, I am the service guy too. Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Peter_Klim]

Hola. I had being representing Martin Logan for over 24 years and I can say that there is a big change for bebtter with the new materials and coating with new panels. 20 years ago, sometimes the coating of the panel was so humidity dependable that only last 2 months here. Yes, I had a nightmare, but never was left alone, and always had the great support from ML service team. Costa Rica somehow became the lab's rabbit for Jim Power. We did try so many new coats and materals until at the Factory, the service and design team build a special room where they could change humidity and temperature dramatically to do the testing for these new materials and coating. The nightmare was gone in the early 90s... And todays panels are totally different than they were and are safe...todays panel diaphragm is so light, that weights less than the air that it moves!!!... Happy listening,
Roberto.

Hola Roberto!

My speakers are the ReQuest (1999?) and the Sequel 2 (mid 90's). Sequesl were replaced last year and the ReQuest are holding up very well right now.

Are you saying that the replacement panel are built better (to last longer) for these speakers than the original panels that came with them? Or are you only saying that the current line of speakers have longer lasting panels than the ReQuest and Sequel 2?


Also, does anyone know if they will last longer if, all factors remaining the same, but you played them softer? Say 65-70 dBs instead of about 85 dBs or more?

 

[wallacefl]

Maybe Justin or Dana Brown could give us a little insight into the sonics of the newer replacement panels. There is a thread on the Audiogon Forum about new CLS2 panels and some sonic improvements noted. It would be interesting if one of the engineer/designers of the CLX would "fess up" and tell us if they tried the smaller/more numerous hole stators on the CLS model before moving on to the CLX project?

 

[Peter_Klim]

I raised a thread on panel longevity - search is your friend, as Tom says. It's arbitrary. I don't think there has been a technology change that will result in newer panels lasting any longer. If there had, ML would have been waxing lyrical over it in their marketing. Haven't seen any evidence of that.

Thanks, an interesting poll. But I'm trying to compare original to replacement panels.

I know that one difference between the old and the new replacement panels is that they now have the clear spars. But are the replacement panels for the older models using the new XStat Transducers, are the the new Generation 2 Electrostatic Panels, do they use the new AirFrame Technology, MicroPerf Stators?

 

[Peter_Klim]

Maybe Justin or Dana Brown could give us a little insight into the sonics of the newer replacement panels. There is a thread on the Audiogon Forum about new CLS2 panels and some sonic improvements noted. It would be interesting if one of the engineer/designers of the CLX would "fess up" and tell us if they tried the smaller/more numerous hole stators on the CLS model before moving on to the CLX project?

Thanks, I'll give Dana a call.

 

[wallacefl]

Thanks, I'll give Dana a call.

let us know his thoughts

 

[JonFo]

I've looked at a few panels in the past decade


The new Monolith panels are substantially better than the mid-90's vintage ones. The tension of the Mylar is clearly better, and they measure a good bit better as well.

I still have 1993 spec panels on my sequel II's and a few years ago measured them vs the new SL3 panels I used in my center channel project. the new panels are obviously much better, but the old ones still did fine.

In practice, the old ones, if cared for well, will last 20+ years (but with declining HF performance).

The new replacements are really well built, and should last even longer. You will probably need to update caps and other electrical elements in the step-up and crossover electronics before the second set of panels goes.

 

[Peter_Klim]

let us know his thoughts

I haven't called, but when I do, I sure will!

I've looked at a few panels in the past decade


The new Monolith panels are substantially better than the mid-90's vintage ones. The tension of the Mylar is clearly better, and they measure a good bit better as well.

I still have 1993 spec panels on my sequel II's and a few years ago measured them vs the new SL3 panels I used in my center channel project. the new panels are obviously much better, but the old ones still did fine.

In practice, the old ones, if cared for well, will last 20+ years (but with declining HF performance).

The new replacements are really well built, and should last even longer. You will probably need to update caps and other electrical elements in the step-up and crossover electronics before the second set of panels goes.

That's good to know!

But when you did a measured comparrison with the new vs old, you were comparing a new new, vs and "aged" old one. So because the old one was aged already, that could be why it's not as good as the new one (not aged), right?

Also, which caps do you replace? All of them? I asked Jim last year and Dana a couple of weeks ago and neither of them new what i was talking about.

 

[MPS]

New stators are more efficient as we can read from the specs. This itself has nothing to do with sound quality but gives slight edge in the amplifier department, always an issue with ML ESL.
There are several other more interesting properties but - they will raise issues which any company's marketing department rather sweep under the carpet.
Such as:
- panel resonance
- panel longevity
- production quality / stability

 

[JonFo]

...
But when you did a measured comparison with the new vs old, you were comparing a new new, vs and "aged" old one. So because the old one was aged already, that could be why it's not as good as the new one (not aged), right?

Yes, it was indeed new vs old, so not apples to apples I know. But the difference in efficiency was indeed apparent. The diff in frequency response would be primarily due to age.
What it does tell us is that it is very much worthwhile to update panels that might be really old, or have obvious performance drop-offs

...Also, which caps do you replace? All of them? I asked Jim last year and Dana a couple of weeks ago and neither of them new what i was talking about.

All of them. Really, I replace the entire crossover system and use active speaker processors.

I've yet to mod anything in the step-up boards, since they are not really in the audio path, and as long as they generate the right measured voltages, I leave them alone (for now).