Apple TV and outboard DAC

[Cursed1]

I am not sure if I will be "beat up" for posting this however....

I have seen that quite a few forum members have Squeeze Box 3's. I am sure that in the audiophile world that is not even close to ideal but the reality is that it offers convenience that a CD player alone can not.

I currently have a 2 channel setup with an Apple TV however I do not have any sort of outboard DAC. I have all my music Apple Lossless on an external drive that is currently streaming to the the Apple TV. I am not interested in purchasing a Squeeze Box considering I can purchase a nice DAC to upgrade the audio performance of the Apple TV that I currently own. Is there anyone that has this sort of setup that can comment? Thanks!

On a side note if you haven't had a chance to experience the Apple TV I invite you too. It is a really cool product with a killer user interface.

 

[Rich]

I have an apple TV and like it a lot. I am not using it for streaming music, however, since I have a dedicated audio server. I use the apple tv more for my pictures and for movies and podcasts. For music/movie sound, I wish they would put a digital coax output on the apple tv. I would prefer that over the optical output.

 

[ralflar]

Quite a few members here enjoy the Squeezebox plus DAC as an audiophile source. Like you said there are other members who would not even touch such a combo. It all comes down to opinions and beliefs more than anything else. Objectively speaking there are many arguments in favor of a computer-driven transport plus external DAC, few against it.

A good external DAC brings a huge improvement to the SB3. I have no doubts that it will likewise improve the ATV SQ.

 

[Cursed1]

Quite a few members here enjoy the Squeezebox plus DAC as an audiophile source. Like you said there are other members who would not even touch such a combo. It all comes down to opinions and beliefs more than anything else. Objectively speaking there are many arguments in favor of a computer-driven transport plus external DAC, few against it.

A good external DAC brings a huge improvement to the SB3. I have no doubts that it will likewise improve the ATV SQ.

Any real world DAC sound quality tests? Any particular DAC to consider as a starting point? What file format have people chosen to use as preference? Thanks for the input.

 

[amey01]

I run a Squeezebox 3 into a Musical Fidelity X-DAC (soon to be upgraded - maybe to a TriVista, maybe a Benchmark, maybe something better [if WAF allows])! This setup doesn't yield much of an improvement over the SB3 analogue output into a Musical Fidelity X-10D - in fact, that even beats it in some areas. The analogue outputs of the SB3 are probably better than the Apple TV.

It's a great combination - all of my music is in either FLAC or ALAC. They sound identical. While this combination won't beat my Marantz 8300, running the Marantz through the X-DAC yields an identical result (to me). That would indicate that you lose *nothing* (or very little) by running a streaming setup.

Now, as for the Apple TV, most of us here are audiophiles. While the Apple TV probably sounds very similar to a SB3 when both are running an outboard DAC, most audiophiles want video *NOTHING* in their audio setups. I personally, can't think of anything worse than having to turn on my plasma every time I wanted to listen to music, then have the plasma running for the whole listening session so that I can control the music. This is the key area that the SB3 excels - it is an audio only device that is optimised for audio. You can't beat that.

BUT - (the above aside) if you're happy with the Apple TV, then adding an outboard DAC to it will yield a near-identical performance to a SB3 into the outboard DAC (or a CD Player running the same DAC for that for that matter).

 

[Cursed1]

I run a Squeezebox 3 into a Musical Fidelity X-DAC (soon to be upgraded - maybe to a TriVista, maybe a Benchmark, maybe something better [if WAF allows])! This setup doesn't yield much of an improvement over the SB3 analogue output into a Musical Fidelity X-10D - in fact, that even beats it in some areas. The analogue outputs of the SB3 are probably better than the Apple TV.

It's a great combination - all of my music is in either FLAC or ALAC. They sound identical. While this combination won't beat my Marantz 8300, running the Marantz through the X-DAC yields an identical result (to me). That would indicate that you lose *nothing* (or very little) by running a streaming setup.

Now, as for the Apple TV, most of us here are audiophiles. While the Apple TV probably sounds very similar to a SB3 when both are running an outboard DAC, most audiophiles want video *NOTHING* in their audio setups. I personally, can't think of anything worse than having to turn on my plasma every time I wanted to listen to music, then have the plasma running for the whole listening session so that I can control the music. This is the key area that the SB3 excels - it is an audio only device that is optimised for audio. You can't beat that.

BUT - (the above aside) if you're happy with the Apple TV, then adding an outboard DAC to it will yield a near-identical performance to a SB3 into the outboard DAC (or a CD Player running the same DAC for that for that matter).

I appreciate the help. How do people feel about the Benchmark vs. a PS Audio DAC?

 

[ralflar]

Q1: "Any real world DAC sound quality tests?"
Not sure what you mean.

Q2: "Any particular DAC to consider as a starting point?"
You already mentioned two in your last post. I submit a 3rd candidate, the DAC which I use, a Channel Islands Audio VDA-2 plus external power supply.

Q3: "What file format have people chosen to use as preference?"
FLAC ripped with Exact Audio Copy.

 

[Cursed1]

Q1: "Any real world DAC sound quality tests?"
Not sure what you mean.

Q2: "Any particular DAC to consider as a starting point?"
You already mentioned two in your last post. I submit a 3rd candidate, the DAC which I use, a Channel Islands Audio VDA-2 plus external power supply.

Q3: "What file format have people chosen to use as preference?"
FLAC ripped with Exact Audio Copy.

Q1: Sorry. I meant if I spend a $1000 for a DAC is it going to a worthwhile purchase? I am assuming that more than one person on this site has some insight to what they have found to be "money well spent" on certain DAC's and if there are just plain worthless pieces to stay away from.

Thanks!

 

[amey01]

$USD1,000 on a DAC will be a worthwile purchase, but I wouldn't go much lower than that. (ie. my Musical Fidelity X-DAC experience). The analogue outputs of a SB3 are really not bad at all!

$USD1,000 will yield a noticable improvement. Have a listen to some and see what you think. I've heard reports that the Benchmark can be quite cold and clinical, but (with valve electronics) I've not heard (with my ears) that at all. A second-hand TriVista would also fit into that price category. Maybe some older ARC DACs as well, although I've not heard those. Oh, and I've seen some SFI DACs for that price as well. Not sure if the Processor 3 makes it under $USD1,000 yet, but I've heard that a few years ago and it's magic!

 

[ralflar]

C1, assuming that you already have, or plan to buy, a good pre-amp and amp combo my answer to your $1000 question is yes.

I always thought that the internal DACs of the SB3 are very good expecially when the $300 price tag is considered. I doubt that the analog outs of the ATV match the quality of the SB3's analog outs. However when I added the external DAC the SB3 played in a much higher league. Therefore I am confident that the improvement on an ATV will be very noticeable.

 

[Craig]

I've considered adding an Apple TV to my HT system but I'd like to see what the pros/cons are and learn a little more about exactly what it does. I'll take a closer look next time in the Apple store. I still haven't upgraded to a Blu-Ray or Plasma yet and that will probably be the next steps for me.

I've been very impressed with the sound quality of the SB3, especially when I use the coax digital output and digital input and DAC of the Wadia CD player. I'll also say the internal DAC of the SB3 is pretty good. As Raflar says you can't beat the SB3 in value as a music server. Although, it requires some software setup and a computer to the most out of it so it is a little more involved than just being a "plug and play" unit.

As you can see, my SB3 maintains a prominent place in my system. I'm also fortunate to have Sleepysurf nearby when I need SB3 tech support.

 

[Cursed1]

C1, assuming that you already have, or plan to buy, a good pre-amp and amp combo my answer to your $1000 question is yes.

I always thought that the internal DACs of the SB3 are very good expecially when the $300 price tag is considered. I doubt that the analog outs of the ATV match the quality of the SB3's analog outs. However when I added the external DAC the SB3 played in a much higher league. Therefore I am confident that the improvement on an ATV will be very noticeable.

If and when I upgrade I will post my results. Thanks!

 

[ralflar]

Craig, is that your new setup? It looks spectacular!

 

[JonFo]

... As you can see, my SB3 maintains a prominent place in my system. I'm also fortunate to have Sleepysurf nearby when I need SB3 tech support.

And also lucky to have George (Rampage60) around for great pics.

Systems is sure looking nice Craig :bowdown:

 

[Craig]

Craig, is that your new setup? It looks spectacular!

That is my system as of a couple of weeks ago. Although, I'm currently using my Electrocompaniet 4.7 Preamp in place of the Art Audio VP1 Preamp and it works very well in this system. I'm sure being able to use all balanced cables with this preamp doesn't hurt.

George did an excellent job capturing the setup with his photo skills. The lighting is this room is more of a challenge than the acoustics.

 

[Dreamer]

I do not have an AppleTV box, but I stream my iTunes music from my MacBook Pro (all ripped in Apple Lossless) through an Airport Express, which I then have connected to a Benchmark DAC1-usb via the TOSLINK output on the Airport Express.

I also run my Oppo DVD player's PCM outs to the Benchmark for playing Redbook Audio CDs. Sometimes I even hook up my laptop to the Benchmark directly through the USB port...

And the Benchmark DOES greatly improve the sound of the streamed iTunes music through the Airport--even through the crappy TOSLINK interface. In fact, it actually makes streamed audio sound DAMN good, especially if you've got the Benchmark's internal output attenuation jumpers set at "0", and you're running the analog output through the balanced outs.

I LOVE the sound of my Benchmark. I like it even more since I've switched the attenuation jumpers. (Why do they ship the Benchmark DAC with the balanced outs attenuated 20dB? It sounds like a completely different DAC with zero attenuation--open, cleaner, sweeter mids, and MUCH more musical and authoritative bass!)

I'm an Apple geek from WAY back--I mean back even before the "Lisa" days--Bro, I am what you call Apple OLD SCHOOL. I LOVE my Mac. I think the Airport Express is one of the coolest digital gadgets ever shipped, even if it's only digital output is crappy TOSLINK. Feeding the analogue outs of the Airport into a stereo is OK if you'r eusing it for background music at a party or something, but I think that if you run it's digital signal to a good DAC, it is as close as you're going to get to "acceptable for critical listening" as you can get for streamed audio. And th ecombined price of a Benchmark and an Airport Express is under $1200, so although it might not be as cool-looking as a Logitec Transporter, it's also almost half the price. Personally, I'll gladly save the $800 on hardware for a negligable improvement in sound, and put that dough toward buying more CDs and DVDs... :music:

I've never A/B'd the PS Audio DAC. I have heard it, and it's pretty good. It does have a slightly different sound from the Benchmark, but a lot of folks seem to like it. If you like the crisp detail of Krell or Wadia digital, or the luxurious detail and understated depth of Brit digital gear, you'll probably prefer the Benchmark.

And if you DO get a Benchmark, you simply MUST change those output jumpers if you are using the Balanced analogue outs--the improvement is NOT subtle...

And BTW, you can get used Benchmarks for well under $1000, if you look around.

So to summarize, as an Apple fanatic and a Benchmark owner, I can attest to the fact (or rather the opinion) that they are a VERY good combination, at least to my ears, and in my rig.

--Richard

 

[Cursed1]

I do not have an AppleTV box, but I stream my iTunes music from my MacBook Pro (all ripped in Apple Lossless) through an Airport Express, which I then have connected to a Benchmark DAC1-usb via the TOSLINK output on the Airport Express.

I also run my Oppo DVD player's PCM outs to the Benchmark for playing Redbook Audio CDs. Sometimes I even hook up my laptop to the Benchmark directly through the USB port...

And the Benchmark DOES greatly improve the sound of the streamed iTunes music through the Airport--even through the crappy TOSLINK interface. In fact, it actually makes streamed audio sound DAMN good, especially if you've got the Benchmark's internal output attenuation jumpers set at "0", and you're running the analog output through the balanced outs.

I LOVE the sound of my Benchmark. I like it even more since I've switched the attenuation jumpers. (Why do they ship the Benchmark DAC with the balanced outs attenuated 20dB? It sounds like a completely different DAC with zero attenuation--open, cleaner, sweeter mids, and MUCH more musical and authoritative bass!)

I'm an Apple geek from WAY back--I mean back even before the "Lisa" days--Bro, I am what you call Apple OLD SCHOOL. I LOVE my Mac. I think the Airport Express is one of the coolest digital gadgets ever shipped, even if it's only digital output is crappy TOSLINK. Feeding the analogue outs of the Airport into a stereo is OK if you'r eusing it for background music at a party or something, but I think that if you run it's digital signal to a good DAC, it is as close as you're going to get to "acceptable for critical listening" as you can get for streamed audio. And th ecombined price of a Benchmark and an Airport Express is under $1200, so although it might not be as cool-looking as a Logitec Transporter, it's also almost half the price. Personally, I'll gladly save the $800 on hardware for a negligable improvement in sound, and put that dough toward buying more CDs and DVDs... :music:

I've never A/B'd the PS Audio DAC. I have heard it, and it's pretty good. It does have a slightly different sound from the Benchmark, but a lot of folks seem to like it. If you like the crisp detail of Krell or Wadia digital, or the luxurious detail and understated depth of Brit digital gear, you'll probably prefer the Benchmark.

And if you DO get a Benchmark, you simply MUST change those output jumpers if you are using the Balanced analogue outs--the improvement is NOT subtle...

And BTW, you can get used Benchmarks for well under $1000, if you look around.

So to summarize, as an Apple fanatic and a Benchmark owner, I can attest to the fact (or rather the opinion) that they are a VERY good combination, at least to my ears, and in my rig.

--Richard

I appreciate your in depth response!