Another "What would you do?" Thread.

[FOUNTAIN]

Ok, I may be in a unique situation to purchase either another MC275 V or a different preamp before years end. I am not buying used, but rather possibly taking advantage of a year end sale from my dealer who has spent alot of time with me on these two choices of equipment. Not to mention the financing is always a great incentive for me at least. I have never hooked up two of these amps to my Vantages and so I have no idea what to expect as far as dynamics go etc. Since the tubes in my amp have already been replaced with doug's tubes it would be hard to borrow the delears and get a fair comparison with a mix of stock and aftermarket tubes. Now for the preamp, as you can see on the memebers first page of my system I have a VTL 2.5 with ram tubes. This preamp has been a joy to listen to, but I was not sure if this piece was my choke point or if it was just needing more power, such as another MC275? I have toyed with the idea of adding another amp in the past vs. doing something else, and each time someone here has steered me into another direction based on needs in my system: Room acoustics, Aeon I's to Vantages, upgrading turntable, new tubes etc. All of this advice has worked out great for me which is why I am asking once again for your help in deciding which is a better path to take. Oh yea! Almost forgot to mention the preamp that I'm looking at, Ayre k-5xe. Now there is a remote possibility that he may sell me his demo version of the Ayre K-1xe, but this is not looking like it's going to pan out unless he decides to part with it for a great price. The past few days I've leaned toward the preamp, but this morning I woke up leaning towards the amp so...... I don't know! What would you do?

Glen

 

[C.A.P]

Tough call, Id demo the pre amp first. Seems many here love the MC275 , Two would really bloom I would think

DEMO before spending $$$

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Tough call, Id demo the pre amp first. Seems many here love the MC275 , Two would really bloom I would think

DEMO before spending $$$

Thank you C.A.P.. I hope to demo the preamp sometime soon, but as for the second amp that may not work out. I'll have to wait and see. Has anyone went from 1 of these amps to 2, and if so what did you think? Also, has anyone ever made the switch from a VTL 2.5 or something similar to the Ayre k-5xe. I guess it comes down to which route would you take if faced with a similar situation? Thanks again C.A.P., I do think you are right that two would really bloom, and auditioning is really the best option.

Glen

 

[Rich]

What limitations are you hearing in your system? What direction are you looking to take your sound? Without an idea of what you are hoping to achieve, we can't really give you very useful opinions. Personally, I think the Mac tube amps roll off the highs a bit on Logans and don't measure up to other amps. My opinion. I know some others feel differently.

Honestly, one MC275 should have sufficient power to run the Vantages just fine, and I would expect the impact of adding another would be limited. Audible, perhaps, but limited. You will probably get more bang for the buck upgrading the preamp and/or the source before adding another MC 275. Personally, I would think there would be more positive impact from switching to a different amp altogether, but again that is my opinion and doesn't necessarily correlate with your listening preferences.

 

[CLS2ASTAT]

Hi Fountain,

You mention that there's a "choke point" in the overall sound of your system.
Could you elaborate on this and what you feel are the weak points that you need to address?

 

[twich54]

Personally, I think the Mac tube amps roll off the highs a bit on Logans and don't measure up to other amps. My opinion. I know some others feel differently.

Not me Rich, I agree with you, for It was a year ago that I first listened to the "275" running up against Vantage's and while it was 'polite' it by no means wow'ed me. I do think though, that it is pretty much accepted knowledge that one really needs to roll out the stock tubes and roll in those that meet your sonic criteria.

IMO, the Rogue M-150's represented to my ear a better match with my Vantage's and thus my purchase of them.

Fountian, I'm sure that with tube rolling and maybe a different cable IC, I could have gotten 'magic' out of the 275 as well.

 

[JonFo]

Hi Glen, as Rich mentioned, what is it you want to change?

If just looking for more 'transparency' I'd go with a high-quality SS amp, as I find they deal better with the loads the ML put on the amp.
You already have a tube front-end, so you get some of the 'tube' sound that way.

BTW- we need to arrange a local meet. My all SS system may or may not be to your liking, but it sure is clean.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

What limitations are you hearing in your system? What direction are you looking to take your sound? Without an idea of what you are hoping to achieve, we can't really give you very useful opinions. Personally, I think the Mac tube amps roll off the highs a bit on Logans and don't measure up to other amps. My opinion. I know some others feel differently.

Honestly, one MC275 should have sufficient power to run the Vantages just fine, and I would expect the impact of adding another would be limited. Audible, perhaps, but limited. You will probably get more bang for the buck upgrading the preamp and/or the source before adding another MC 275. Personally, I would think there would be more positive impact from switching to a different amp altogether, but again that is my opinion and doesn't necessarily correlate with your listening preferences.

Better sound!! But seriously, part of what I'm trying to achieve is a better level of transparancey as JonFo had asked. There are times when I feel as if the scale is off a little, with the instruments seeming to be larger than believeability. When I listen at my dealers this scale seems to be more proportionate to the instrument. Also, in the midrange their is a slight frequency attenuation that sounds a little unnatural. This isn't present in all recordings but if the recording leans toward this sound then it seems to be even more exaggerated. I believe the preamp may be the cause of this. I have replaced the original tubes with some ram tubes, but it did not change too much in this area although the highs did sweeten some.

As for the Mac I'm not convinced that there is a rolling off of the highs, but I may have to borrow an amp from my dealer to verify this. I do believe what most peoples' angst with the 275 is they are listening to the stock tubes rather than an aftermarket set. I bought some from doug's tubes and it did wonders for the high end. Is there another level of highs beyond this; maybe but to my ears they seem pretty good.

One other goal that I would like to achieve is a completly balanced system, at least from cd player to amp. By going the ayre preamp way then that gets me one step closer, but to be truly balanced I will either need to buy another Mc275 and run them as mono blocks or go with another amp that is completely balanced already. So whether I go the amp route or preamp route I want to make sure that it is truly balanced all the way through.

Earlier this evening I borrowed the Ayre k-1xe preamp and just put it into my system. After some listening I'm sure this will give me a better idea of what a better preamp will change. But I will have to say my first impression is WOW!!!

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Hi Glen, as Rich mentioned, what is it you want to change?

If just looking for more 'transparency' I'd go with a high-quality SS amp, as I find they deal better with the loads the ML put on the amp.
You already have a tube front-end, so you get some of the 'tube' sound that way.

BTW- we need to arrange a local meet. My all SS system may or may not be to your liking, but it sure is clean.

Hey Jon, you and Rich may be right about this SS amp suggestion. I haven't ruled out selling the mc275 and purchasing another amp such as the Ayre V-5xe. Much of this depends on whether I end up getting a good deal on the Ayre k-1 or not. If this preamp ends up making some of those changes that I mentioned in the post above and if I can afford to make the move to the k-1 then I will probably go the preamp route first. Otherwise I may make an amp change. While having tubes is fun to me, I am open to changing if that means better transparency and the like.

As for meeting, I would love too, and I'm sure your system would be very much to my liking.:music:

 

[JonFo]

...

As for meeting, I would love too, and I'm sure your system would be very much to my liking.:music:

OK, we're on Glen, I've sent you a PM.

Be forewarned, listening to this system has resulted in people being infected by the 'upgradeitis’ disease. But then, you seem to already suffer from it

So it will be like pouring gas on a fire :devil:

 

[FOUNTAIN]

So it will be like pouring gas on a fire :devil:

LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!!!!!!:music:

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Just wanted to follow up with some observations from the swapping of preamps. As I stated earlier I borrowed an Ayre k-1 from my dealer and after listening for a couple of hours last night and nearly an hour this morning I am still in awe. One difference that I had not anticipated was a better punchier bass compared to the vtl. At first this was not apparent because the phase had to be changed from 0 to 180 on the depth sub. I knew something was amiss after a couple of songs so I got my trusty level meter and confirmed the difference. Once the phase was switched the bass became punchier and cleaner. There even seems to be another level of bass that wasn't there before. As for the midrange there was a significant improvement and where there used to be some clutter with complex passages there was now a more open and deeper soundstage with clarity. To use an overused illustration, its as if someone took Windex and cleaned the window into the music. Obviously, these are just first impressions with only 3 hours or so of listening, but these were more than subtle differences. As for the amp, I will most likely put that on the back burner for now but that descision has not been made final.

Glen

 

[SundayNiagara]

I have a friend who was driving his Summit's with bridged 275's and is now using a vintage Krell FPB amp and finds the sound more to his liking. That doesn't mean he doesn't like tubes, it means he feels the 275's don't sound their best in the bridged mode.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

I have a friend who was driving his Summit's with bridged 275's and is now using a vintage Krell FPB amp and finds the sound more to his liking. That doesn't mean he doesn't like tubes, it means he feels the 275's don't sound their best in the bridged mode.

That's interesting. Thank you for sharing. I will keep checking my options if and when I decide to make an amp change. Maybe I should demo a SS amp.

Glen

 

[SundayNiagara]

That's interesting. Thank you for sharing. I will keep checking my options if and when I decide to make an amp change. Maybe I should demo a SS amp.

Glen

You could also look for a used ARC VT-100 III and get most of what the REF-110 gives you for a fraction of the price.

 

[hotroady]

Just wanted to follow up with some observations from the swapping of preamps. As I stated earlier I borrowed an Ayre k-1 from my dealer and after listening for a couple of hours last night and nearly an hour this morning I am still in awe. One difference that I had not anticipated was a better punchier bass compared to the vtl. At first this was not apparent because the phase had to be changed from 0 to 180 on the depth sub. I knew something was amiss after a couple of songs so I got my trusty level meter and confirmed the difference. Once the phase was switched the bass became punchier and cleaner. There even seems to be another level of bass that wasn't there before. As for the midrange there was a significant improvement and where there used to be some clutter with complex passages there was now a more open and deeper soundstage with clarity. To use an overused illustration, its as if someone took Windex and cleaned the window into the music. Obviously, these are just first impressions with only 3 hours or so of listening, but these were more than subtle differences. As for the amp, I will most likely put that on the back burner for now but that descision has not been made final.

Glen

This is a link to an ongoing review I'm doing, we have been finding many of the same things! http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=58195.0 Go about 8 responses down to see I've discovered almost the same exact things you speak of.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

You could also look for a used ARC VT-100 III and get most of what the REF-110 gives you for a fraction of the price.

Thank you Sunday for the reccomendations. Audio Research has always been something I would like to try one day, but have not been exposed too. I haven't looked into these particular pieces yet, but I wonder if they're fully balanced or not? I'll check into them and if they are then I may add them to my list. Thanks again.

Glen

 

[FOUNTAIN]

This is a link to an ongoing review I'm doing, we have been finding many of the same things! http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=58195.0 Go about 8 responses down to see I've discovered almost the same exact things you speak of.

Hello Hotroady. I'm assuming you are referring to the difference I found when I switched phases on the depth sub. For the longest time I couldn't figure out why in the world would switching preamps create a phase problem between my Vantages and sub. It made no sense! Then it dawned on me that when I hooked up the Ayre k-1, the instructions told me to swap the + and - on the speaker amp end because the phase is inverted when using singe ended rca's. Eventually I'll use balanced cables and will probably have to swap them back to the correct phase; assuming that I purchase the k-1. But you are correct that if the sub is out of phase with the main speakers it not only affects the bass, but also the midrange dramatically. I'm glad I got that figured out because that would have given me a completly wrong impression of the k-1.

 

[RichTeer]

Thank you Sunday for the reccomendations. Audio Research has always been something I would like to try one day, but have not been exposed too. I haven't looked into these particular pieces yet, but I wonder if they're fully balanced or not? I'll check into them and if they are then I may add them to my list. Thanks again.

Glen

Yep, the ARC Reference 110 is fully balanced.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Yep, the ARC Reference 110 is fully balanced.

Thank you RichTeer for the post and link. I will definitely put this on my list if I decide to go the amp route. It is out of my price range at this time, but it sure does look tempting.

Glen