Another recording.... RUINED!

[jk319]

JK,

A good vinyl setup (and I'm not talking multi-thousand$$$ here.... just your run of the mill $500 or under TT) will get you better sound (i.e. more natural, better focus and imaging) than a CDP or DAC several times that price.

I did not know that. Who woulda thunk. My close friend that was recently here has a decent vinyl collection. I bet he would love to listen to some of them on my speakers. However, I imagine he might have an inadequate player. Hmmmm

 

[JonFo]

I did not know that. Who woulda thunk. My close friend that was recently here has a decent vinyl collection. I bet he would love to listen to some of them on my speakers. However, I imagine he might have an inadequate player. Hmmmm

I rarely speak on these more contentious topics, but I do feel the need to throw in the dissenting vote here regarding Vinyl.

Yes, a decent TT system can generate great sound, heck I grew up listening to nothing but vinyl and am very familiar with all the tweaks.
And yes, the first CD’s and CD players had awful issues which are readily identified.

My frame of reference for a good contemporary TT system is a good friends $>7K investment (in just the TT elements) in his dedicated (custom built) listening room. It is state of the art.

Listening to LP’s on that system is an amazing experience, I’d not have thought they could ever sound that good.

However, and here comes the contrarian view, it does not even come close to the levels of dynamic range, bass extension, high-end clarity I get from my ripped and upsampled CD’s played on my rig.
Again, not even close. Difference is obvious. Even on my friends system, we play the same title on LP then on his high-end CD player, and I consistently prefer the CD. Again, dynamic range is clearly in CD’s favor as are bass dynamics (keep in mind that high volume low-frequency traces in an LP need to be, and are, limited).

This is my researched preference, and not gospel. So if you love the TT / Vinyl ‘sound’, then more power to ya. Just understand some of us don’t buy the ‘better/best’ part and will take those funds and invest them elsewhere in our systems.

 

[lugano]

I rarely speak on these more contentious topics, but I do feel the need to throw in the dissenting vote here regarding Vinyl......This is my researched preference, and not gospel. So if you love the TT / Vinyl ‘sound’, then more power to ya. Just understand some of us don’t buy the ‘better/best’ part and will take those funds and invest them elsewhere in our systems.

AMEN Jonathan.

 

[romax]

I rarely speak on these more contentious topics, but I do feel the need to throw in the dissenting vote here regarding Vinyl.

Yes, a decent TT system can generate great sound, heck I grew up listening to nothing but vinyl and am very familiar with all the tweaks.
And yes, the first CD’s and CD players had awful issues which are readily identified.

My frame of reference for a good contemporary TT system is a good friends $>7K investment (in just the TT elements) in his dedicated (custom built) listening room. It is state of the art.

Listening to LP’s on that system is an amazing experience, I’d not have thought they could ever sound that good.

However, and here comes the contrarian view, it does not even come close to the levels of dynamic range, bass extension, high-end clarity I get from my ripped and upsampled CD’s played on my rig.
Again, not even close. Difference is obvious. Even on my friends system, we play the same title on LP then on his high-end CD player, and I consistently prefer the CD. Again, dynamic range is clearly in CD’s favor as are bass dynamics (keep in mind that high volume low-frequency traces in an LP need to be, and are, limited).

This is my researched preference, and not gospel. So if you love the TT / Vinyl ‘sound’, then more power to ya. Just understand some of us don’t buy the ‘better/best’ part and will take those funds and invest them elsewhere in our systems.

Very true! For me it's exactly the opposite, I consistently prefer vinyl.

 

[DTB300]

Again, dynamic range is clearly in CD’s favor as are bass dynamics

Very true! For me it's exactly the opposite, I consistently prefer vinyl.

Opposite of what Jonfo stated regarding CD "....it does not even come close to the levels of dynamic range, bass extension, high-end clarity....", or that you just prefer vinyl over CD???

 

[romax]

Opposite of what Jonfo stated regarding CD "....it does not even come close to the levels of dynamic range, bass extension, high-end clarity....", or that you just prefer vinyl over CD???

Oops, I meant that in my ears' opinion it is the opposite of what Jonfo stated about dynamic range, bass extension, high-end clarity...., but it is true that everyone hears things a little differently.

 

[jk319]

Thanks for the honest input JonFo. For someone who doesn't know, it is good to hear the contrarian POV. Even if you are outnumbered I like these boards, people can agree to disagree, not much of that you-know-what you find at other forums...

 

[DTB300]

Oops, I meant that in my ears' opinion it is the opposite of what Jonfo stated about dynamic range, bass extension, high-end clarity...., but it is true that everyone hears things a little differently.

Yes I would agree that everyone hears things differently and the euphoria of the vinyl sound is something hard to get in digital. But the limitations of vinyl, in terms of dynamic range is something recording engineers like Michael Bishop of Telarc even recognize and have to be accounted for during mastering processes. Again, it is not to say, due to this limitation someone would not like vinyl better. It is personal preference like all the components in our setups.

For me I completely agree with Jonfo. Some of the best modified digital players out there are not only giving superb playback in the areas he mentioned, but also ease of use with drop and play, ease of purchasing the medium, and being able to find the music that I am looking to listen to.

 

[lugano]

Personally I tend to interpret ad litteram the term "HiFi". To me, it is really about fidelity to the original, and less about "pleasant to the ear". And this obsession of mine maybe reduces the enjoyment of some music. It excludes any concession to the pleasantness of the harmonics added by tubes, for sure, and the digital world is a great step forward, IMHO.

Forgetting the fact that most music is recorded digitally, then split towards the CD medium and the LP medium (with the CD getting the full meal and the LP suffering from at least one step more, which for sure does not contribute to making the content better) is something I don't do. Of course, some will tell me that once upon a time the whole procedure was analog...sure, but the technology was also quite limited in those times. Microphones, cables, tapes...it was music reproduction, but from a hiFi POV it's like comparing a pet commodore VS Pentium 4.

If we really pretend to hear differences between a stock power cord and a $300 one but on the other side we claim that a vinyl recording sounds the same after having it played for 10 times (do you know that around the stylus there are temperatures reaching 200° C, enough to melt forever any tiny particle in the groove ?) and we insist that dynamics and channel separation are in the same boat with what the CD offers - or even better -, well, something is wrong.

Turntables have their magic, they open the door to endless rituals and keep our connection with the past in an opened state. LP's have many values... but some drawbacks that I'm happy to live without, in these digital times.

 

[nsgarch]

You forget it. It's patently untrue!

Personally I tend to interpret ad litteram the term "HiFi". To me, it is really about fidelity to the original, and less about "pleasant to the ear". And this obsession of mine maybe reduces the enjoyment of some music. It excludes any concession to the pleasantness of the harmonics added by tubes, for sure, and the digital world is a great step forward, IMHO.

Tubes ADDING harmonics? Not unless the tube equipment was designed to do so! Otherwise you're laboring under a notorious and widespread misconception. What's great about tube amps is that they don't DROP harmonics and signal nuances while amplifying the signal many times over. SS amps drop these little niceties in the "cracks" between turn-on, turn-off cycles.

Forgetting the fact that most music is recorded digitally, then split towards the CD medium and the LP medium (with the CD getting the full meal and the LP suffering from at least one step more, which for sure does not contribute to making the content better) is something I don't do. Of course, some will tell me that once upon a time the whole procedure was analog...sure, but the technology was also quite limited in those times. Microphones, cables, tapes...it was music reproduction, but from a hiFi POV it's like comparing a pet commodore VS Pentium 4.

Oh give me a break! Have you any idea how many contemporary performers, in almost all musical categories, eschew the best digital mastering in favor of analog tape -- to say nothing of all the re-releases on vinyl, from original mastertapes, which sound lightyears beter than the CD re-releases. Don't get me wrong, I have a GREAT digital playback system, and I love it (when the software is up to snuff) but you are dreaming (wishful thinking?) if you imagine analog processing is out of the picture. Of course, you are decidedly entitled to your opinions, just don't present them as facts!

If we really pretend to hear differences between a stock power cord and a $300 one but on the other side we claim that a vinyl recording sounds the same after having it played for 10 times (do you know that around the stylus there are temperatures reaching 200° C, enough to melt forever any tiny particle in the groove ?) and we insist that dynamics and channel separation are in the same boat with what the CD offers - or even better -, well, something is wrong.

Would you like then to explain why my Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall recording (which I purchased new in 1959) has more air and presence when A/B'd with the much-hyped CD release? And yet that old LP, though well cared for, has been played on a variety of TT's TA's and cartridges for over 45 years.

Turntables have their magic, they open the door to endless rituals and keep our connection with the past in an opened state. LP's have many values... but some drawbacks that I'm happy to live without, in these digital times.

I find this attitude unbelievably condescenduing and dismissive :bowdown:

 

[DTB300]

Oh give me a break! Have you any idea how many contemporary performers, in almost all musical categories, eschew the best digital mastering in favor of analog tape

You better contact Telarc and inform them their recording and mastering of all their new music in DSD is wrong. Who the "F" cares how it is recorded, as long as it is done right, regardless of the format....

SS amps drop these little niceties in the "cracks" between turn-on, turn-off cycles.

Yep, ALL forms of solid-state do this...yep.....tubes never add harmonics...yep.... Why don't we all try to be a little more specific in terms of talking about these points instead of being so generilzed in our statements.

Would you like then to explain why my Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall recording (which I purchased new in 1959) has more air and presence when A/B'd with the much-hyped CD release? And yet that old LP, though well cared for, has been played on a variety of TT's TA's and cartridges for over 45 years.

Sure, it is your typical problem CD had is its early roots and still does. Take a master made for vinyl and just transfer it to digital and press it. Most of the early CD's were absolutely horrendous due to this problem.

I find this attitude unbelievably condescenduing and dismissive :bowdown:

Oh well, get over it as it is just an opinion of someones, just like yours. If you are in love with your vinyl and tubes, so be it. It is your setup and your love and I respect you for that, but it is not the end all of end all.

Every format and every piece of equipment has it plus and minues, and each one has to decide which they like best, not what someone else thinks. Gesh, I am so tired of it all.

I believe I am just about ready to take the same road out of here as Zip3kx07.....:angel:

 

[wipper snapper]

Abbott and Costello who's on first

You gentlemen should take this act on the road.

Adrian

 

[Beat_Dominator]

I wish the music industry would actually USE the wide dynamic range possible on CDs

I have a strong personal preference for music with more than 10dB of dynamic range that is common on most consumer CDs.

 

[risabet]

I really tried to avoid adding to this post!

However, and here comes the contrarian view, it does not even come close to the levels of dynamic range, bass extension, high-end clarity I get from my ripped and upsampled CD’s played on my rig.
Again, not even close. Difference is obvious. Even on my friends system, we play the same title on LP then on his high-end CD player, and I consistently prefer the CD. Again, dynamic range is clearly in CD’s favor as are bass dynamics (keep in mind that high volume low-frequency traces in an LP need to be, and are, limited).

The digital apologist would have us believe that ripping and upsampling adds information to that which is on the original disc. Please explain how? Can you say artifacts? I knew you could? Could you please offer some specific albums for your comparison?

Personally I tend to interpret ad litteram the term "HiFi". To me, it is really about fidelity to the original, and less about "pleasant to the ear". And this obsession of mine maybe reduces the enjoyment of some music. It excludes any concession to the pleasantness of the harmonics added by tubes, for sure, and the digital world is a great step forward, IMHO.

Modern design tube electronics don't add harmonics or anything else to the music. They do allow the information that is there, whether from an analog source or a digital one, to emerge more unscathed. When is the last time you heard a violin sound like they do on even good modern RBCDs? I would think never because CD simply doesn't resolve the harmonic structure of string sound in a believable way (no output above 20kHz after all.), though it HAS improved greatly since the days of bleeding ear strings, IMO.

If we really pretend to hear differences between a stock power cord and a $300 one but on the other side we claim that a vinyl recording sounds the same after having it played for 10 times (do you know that around the stylus there are temperatures reaching 200° C, enough to melt forever any tiny particle in the groove ?) and we insist that dynamics and channel separation are in the same boat with what the CD offers - or even better -, well, something is wrong.

Ignoring the differences caused by PC's, albums do sound the same after 10, 20, or 50 plays for those of us who keep our vinyl pristine, the fact that there are transient high temperatures is immaterial. Yes, vinyl flows but it has elastic memory and does return to its original shape. Yes, you can ruin an LP with an improperly set cartridge or a damaged stylus, so what? I can drop a CD and make it unplayable.

Dynamics on CD vs vinyl is a none issue IMO. Can you use 90dB or dynamic range in your listening room? No. 60dB is available on the best LPs and that is a stretch to reproduce in any but the most extreme rooms.

Re: channel separation can you hear a difference between the 30 to 35 dB a good cartridge can provide and the 90 dB spec of CD? In comparison to live music both mediums keep the channels more separated than any live unamplified space is capable of.

Specs aren't music, they don't tell us about the emotional content of music now anymore than they did during the spec wars of the 80's and early 90's.

Lest you think I am anti-digital, I'm not. In fact I'm listening to the DVD-A of Pet Sounds as I write this. It is simply that to my ears, a properly set up vinyl system sounds more like real unamplified music playing in a real space than nearly any CD digital system I've heard at any realistic price. I do think that both SACD and DVD-A are better than RBCD but neither is as good as vinyl, and certainly not as good as ORT @ 15ips but that is another post all together. I admittedly haven't heard the megabuck systems that are currently available.

 

[nsgarch]

Since I can't reprint this without permission . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . I will direct those interested to the following webpage: http://www.meta-gizmo.com/tri/adv/defense_AA.html
Dr. Rosenberg (aka Gizmo) passed away in 2001, and was beloved of a LARGE segment of the audio community: manufacturers, reviewers, engineers, audiophiles, and even performers. His words remain relevant as always and keep his memory alive . . . . . . . . . .

Oh, and thank you Risabet for your kind support.

 

[discocarp]

I really should stay out of this thread but... (I think I will make that my sig line!)

I had to ask, what is "ORT @ 15ips"? I have no idea what that means!

 

[JonFo]

The digital apologist would have us believe that ripping and upsampling adds information to that which is on the original disc. Please explain how? Can you say artifacts? I knew you could? Could you please offer some specific albums for your comparison?
…

Upsampling comes in many forms. I use temporal upsampling (44.1 -> 88.2K samples/sec ). Which while it does not add information, it does give the processor and D/A more to work with and provides a slightly smoother high-end.
This is analogous (see I can use the word analog ) to line-doubling a 480i display signal to 480p. Doesn’t really add info, but makes for a better visual experience.
Its only value is on really high-end systems with pristine treble capabilities (like ML’s).

To my ears, this does not introduce any negative artifacts.

Specific albums: Supertramp Crime of the Century and some Telarc movie soundtrack fanfare thing, forget which one, they have so many.
In both cases, the CD had more information and no (and I grant, it was vanishingly low) groove noise.

My friend obviously preferred the LP sound. And we agree to disagree on that.
My friend also prefers to power his mains (Vandersteens) with a nice AR tube amp. Something I also take a pass on.

Again, it’s about what people prefer. But at the same time, the discussion about what’s correct does have some bearing. The problem is we all bring our biases into those discussions, making it very difficult to discover what’s the real truth.
So in the end, if it floats your boat, go for it.

And for those on the sidelines one way or the other, try and audition both classes of systems and sources and find out what you like.

 

[nsgarch]

ORT = open reel tape . . . . . . .

I really should stay out of this thread but... (I think I will make that my sig line!)I had to ask, what is "ORT @ 15ips"? I have no idea what that means!

@15ips = at 15 inches per second. Some consider this the ultimate in the capture and reproduction of sound. I do, now that we can put digital processing to work doing something useful, i.e. removing tape hiss (OK, that was a little bit snide )

 

[lugano]

I left forever a dictatorship at 15 because I could not immagine my future in a place - a country - where I had to sing with the crowd or else suffer the consequences of having different ideas - and I did have different ideas. Since then, I lived in one of the most democratic countries in the world, a country where we vote even for futile things like cutting down an old tree or not, a country where everybody is entitled to have and express his opinion and a country that I limitless respect.

This is exactly what I've done, starting with "Personally" and strictly sticking to my point of view, as biased or wrong as it might be. It is, and remains, my opinion. And every opinion, especially if it's different from some kind of "established truth", can be the starting point of constructive, mind-opening, horizion-widening dialogs - or can be flushed down the toilet by the first know-it-all dictator around. Other criteria, like political correctness, the desire for social peace and tranquility or the need for perfect harmony at any cost might refrain others from stepping in - but then the whole concept of forum becomes useless, because as nice as it might be to stay silent together, there are other places and times to do it.

Staying together in this forum and turning each day into Christmas, New Year's Eve or Thankgiving is not going to work in the long run. We can't go forever celebrating new members and wowing at each other's new amp or piece of hardware; I personally need healthy discussions from time to time, discussions which bring excitement, new info and ideas, different points of view et similia - but getting answers that begin with "it's patently untrue" and continue with "you're a victim of misconceptions...unbelievably condescending attitude" is not what I was waiting for - it's exactly what I've been running away from my whole life, and my running shoes are always ready, should I have to put them on again.

 

[romax]

I left forever a dictatorship at 15 because I could not immagine my future in a place - a country - where I had to sing with the crowd or else suffer the consequences of having different ideas - and I did have different ideas. Since then, I lived in one of the most democratic countries in the world, a country where we vote even for futile things like cutting down an old tree or not, a country where everybody is entitled to have and express his opinion and a country that I limitless respect.

This is exactly what I've done, starting with "Personally" and strictly sticking to my point of view, as biased or wrong as it might be. It is, and remains, my opinion. And every opinion, especially if it's different from some kind of "established truth", can be the starting point of constructive, mind-opening, horizion-widening dialogs - or can be flushed down the toilet by the first know-it-all dictator around. Other criteria, like political correctness, the desire for social peace and tranquility or the need for perfect harmony at any cost might refrain others from stepping in - but then the whole concept of forum becomes useless, because as nice as it might be to stay silent together, there are other places and times to do it.

Staying together in this forum and turning each day into Christmas, New Year's Eve or Thankgiving is not going to work in the long run. We can't go forever celebrating new members and wowing at each other's new amp or piece of hardware; I personally need healthy discussions from time to time, discussions which bring excitement, new info and ideas, different points of view et similia - but getting answers that begin with "it's patently untrue" and continue with "you're a victim of misconceptions...unbelievably condescending attitude" is not what I was waiting for - it's exactly what I've been running away from my whole life, and my running shoes are always ready, should I have to put them on again.

Well, I think that the debate between analog and digital stirs some deep passions. While I don't like the statements you cited either, I understand that written communication sometimes does not convey the whole message a person is trying to express, thus misunderstandings do arise.
I would not take it too seriously, these disagreements keep things spicy :devil: