Advices for a sub to pair with my CL's

[KrellYourWorld]

Hello all,

i'm actually looking for a Sub to pair with my CL's IIz. I would like to know your advices: which one between the descent or depth? Or is it better to have a look outside ML? Is it better to put 1 or 2 sub's?

Greetz,
Fabio

 

[Jeff Zaret]

My choice is the Depth or the new Depth i.

Jeff

 

[KrellYourWorld]

No other suggestions? I'm especially interested to know if it is better to have 1 or 2 subs, and the advantages or dis-avantages of the 2 configurations.

greetz,
Fabio

 

[JonFo]

Fabio, the Descent i is what I'd recommend from MartinLogan, as it's the bigger of the two models. And in Subs, there is rearely ever enough, especially when keeping up with CLS panels.

Another alternative would be the Velodyne DD-15, as it has excellent distortion characterstics and the integrated room correction EQ is a huge plus.

 

[JonFo]

No other suggestions? I'm especially interested to know if it is better to have 1 or 2 subs, and the advantages or dis-avantages of the 2 configurations.

greetz,
Fabio

Fabio, the topic has been debated often, and I find that having done both variations, that a single sub is easier to integrate, but has limits on SPL (vs 2). Which is why I recommended 1 larger sub.

There are really good arguments for why 2 will not only provide greater SPL, but also give you an option of smoothing out the in-room response of the bass.

My experience is that using just a single phase control (every 90 degrees only on the ML's) is not granular enough to really mate. That and a lack of delay management (beyond what a pre-processor might have for the sub-out) is a huge issue.

Bottom line: 2 (or more) subs can be made to work, and work well, but they will require more effort to achieve good results.

 

[nsgarch]

depending

I heartily support the Depth or Descent as the best sub choice for the CLS. Depending on the size of the room, I'd recommend the following choices in order: (room sizes are approximate)

16 x 25 (or smaller) - 1 Depth
20 x 36 - 2 Depths
30 x 42 - 1 Descent
36 x 48 - (or larger) - 2 Descents

IMO the Depth is (marginally) preferable to the Descent because of it's slightly better transient response.
JonFo's concern over the limited phase adjustment range of the ML subs is somewhat conditional: The best location for the sub(s) is exactly even with the panels (front to back.) One sub placed right between the panels (left to right) and two subs placed just to the outside of each panel (but in all cases even with the panels front to back.

Here's the scientific reason for this placement: a panel speaker has two "dead zones" which are about 20 degrees wide and extend laterally from the left and right edges of the panel . This "null zone" occurs where the back and front wave from the two sides of panel meet, and cancel each other. If a sub is placed in these dead zones, and set to a phase angle of 90 degrees (which is the average of the front and rear wave phase(s) of the panel) it will integrate perfectly with the sound coming from both sides of the panel and the sub will pretty much dissappear as a separate source. Room nodes/modes may affect this ideal, but that's no reason to deviate from these placements. You simply need to treat the room, not move the subs.

The ML subs make this kind of placement work even better, because they radiate in all directions more closely approximating the radiation pattern of a dipole panel -- but remember, the sub radiates in the same phase in all directions, whereas the panel radiates 0 degrees in front and 180 degrees in back. By setting the sub to 90 degrees, it can blend equally well with both the front and rear waves of the panel.

 

[lugano]

Maybe a bit off topic, but...

... this might be an interesting read.

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

 

[KrellYourWorld]

I heartily support the Depth or Descent as the best sub choice for the CLS. Depending on the size of the room, I'd recommend the following choices in order: (room sizes are approximate)

16 x 25 (or smaller) - 1 Depth
20 x 36 - 2 Depths
30 x 42 - 1 Descent
36 x 48 - (or larger) - 2 Descents

IMO the Depth is (marginally) preferable to the Descent because of it's slightly better transient response.
JonFo's concern over the limited phase adjustment range of the ML subs is somewhat conditional: The best location for the sub(s) is exactly even with the panels (front to back.) One sub placed right between the panels (left to right) and two subs placed just to the outside of each panel (but in all cases even with the panels front to back.

Here's the scientific reason for this placement: a panel speaker has two "dead zones" which are about 20 degrees wide and extend laterally from the left and right edges of the panel . This "null zone" occurs where the back and front wave from the two sides of panel meet, and cancel each other. If a sub is placed in these dead zones, and set to a phase angle of 90 degrees (which is the average of the front and rear wave phase(s) of the panel) it will integrate perfectly with the sound coming from both sides of the panel and the sub will pretty much dissappear as a separate source. Room nodes/modes may affect this ideal, but that's no reason to deviate from these placements. You simply need to treat the room, not move the subs.

The ML subs make this kind of placement work even better, because they radiate in all directions more closely approximating the radiation pattern of a dipole panel -- but remember, the sub radiates in the same phase in all directions, whereas the panel radiates 0 degrees in front and 180 degrees in back. By setting the sub to 90 degrees, it can blend equally well with both the front and rear waves of the panel.

Hello.

this is not what ML suggests. In the user manual they say that the correct placement is in the corners, behind the speakers, near the walls. At least this is what they suggest as the starting position for 2 sub's. Then they suggest to move the sub's forward to optimize the strength of bass.
But they do not clearly specify if the same must happen with 1 sub.

Regarding the size of the room, my room is approximatively 85 sqm, made like a "L" with the longest side 12*6 meters.
My idea is to go for a single Descent.

greetz,
Fabio

 

[nsgarch]

Hello.this is not what ML suggests. In the user manual they say that the correct placement is in the corners, behind the speakers, near the walls. At least this is what they suggest as the starting position for 2 sub's. Then they suggest to move the sub's forward to optimize the strength of bass. But they do not clearly specify if the same must happen with 1 sub.Regarding the size of the room, my room is approximatively 85 sqm, made like a "L" with the longest side 12*6 meters. My idea is to go for a single Descent.greetz,Fabio

I know what the user's manual says. I have one. My recommendation is specifically for the use of the Depth/Descent with the CLS, full range, ESL only speaker. The owner's manual has to cover many possible types of ML and non-ML speakers. Listen to daddy :rocker: Also, I would suggest you begin with one Depth, not one Descent; and if you feel you need more poop, then get another Depth. You'll have better integration and more realistic sonics with two Depths vs. one Descent IMO. But I bet you'll be very happy with one

 

[FatJ]

I think I have to back up 'daddy' on this one. I own two descenti's and have to admit that in hindsight part of me wishes I had picked up two depthi's instead. For two channel listening I think it would have been preferred. The depthi is going to be quicker and therefore blend with your CLS's slightly better. Running two of them would be great if you could set them up with your L/R therefore making your own mini-statements to a degree. I've noticed that the new denon processor (in some other thread here) has three balanced sub outputs. I'm hoping that they are assignable to left/right/lfe. Then I think I would sell one of my descenti's and pick up the two depthi's to run in stereo while keeping the other descenti for the LFE. Now THAT would be cooler than the other side of my pillow!

 

[Viking]

Wilson Benesch Torus

 

[mosttoysrk]

KrellYourWorld,
I am picking up my 1st pair of CLS's this Wednesday and am going to pair them with a single Descent (this is what I have been using with my Quest speakers) I am going to have to run the Sub a little behind and in the corner because of room layout constraints. I will post pic's and give you some input when I get them initially setup this Thursday.
Rich

 

[nsgarch]

far out!

Wilson Benesch Torus

I thought the propeller idea was interesting but impractical. I'd not seen this Torus though. What a creative approach! Even at $10K it's hat's off to WB for spending the money to R and D this unit. I'd love to hear one!
http://www.wilson-benesch.com/torus/Torus Brochure.pdf
For a sub to integrate with an ESL panel, transient response is the name of the game. That's BTW why I give the Depth a slight edge over the Descent for mating with the CLS -- remembering that unlike all other ML panels, the CLS is "full range" which means that the bass it does produce is very tight! So if the sub isn't equally tight, the difference between the sub and the panel will be apparent.

 

[KrellYourWorld]

KrellYourWorld,
I am picking up my 1st pair of CLS's this Wednesday and am going to pair them with a single Descent (this is what I have been using with my Quest speakers) I am going to have to run the Sub a little behind and in the corner because of room layout constraints. I will post pic's and give you some input when I get them initially setup this Thursday.
Rich

Hi,

that would be some valuable information.

I tend to privilege the 1 sub solution because i have some serious concerns with the 2 sub's solution. One major concern is for the cables. The signal cables i have now are 1m and 1.5 m. If i have to set up the sub's very far from the Power Amplifier, in the corners, or externally, aligned with the speakers, i'll need some long cables from the pre to the sub's and back to the PA, and knowing the price of good cables this could cost a lot of money. Maybe more than for the sub itself.

With 1 sub i could place it between the Pre and PA, in the center of my system, behind the speakers, maybe without the need to buy new cables.

Greetz,
Fabio

 

[wallacefl]

I presently use a very old ACI Saturn which is a slightly larger version of their SUB-1...neither of which is made now....it uses an SV-12 woofer...still made... see also Meniscus Audio SW-1284. If you have someone who can build a cabinet this turns out to be a great match IMHO. I actually used 3 of these at one time but found no sonic benefit other than output...sold the other two and use the remaining one centered between and behind the mains. I think the amp/crossover needs a continously variable phase control to be integrated well. I have had good luck with an OAUDIO amp set at 40 hz and run the CLS full range.

 

[tonepub]

We are getting the Wilson Benesch Torus in for review next month and I cant wait! I've heard nothing but great stuff about that sub, but it's a bit spendy.

I've been using the REL B2 with my Summits (I know they are not CLS's), but have also used the B2 with Apogee calipers and the Final 1000i with very good results.

Just another thought, but I would also agree with the two smaller subs rather than one big one. I've had excellent luck with that and other panels. The best bet is to experiment if possible!

Good luck...

 

[IWalker]

Heh...the same old argument of depth vs descent.

Ideal placement from a LF Reinforcement standpoint is the corner (ie, you get the equivalent of a bigger sub from a smaller sub) while if you don't care about getting all of the Sub 25Hz oomph, then any positioning can work fine...each room will have different peaks and nulls, and changing positioning can effect the position and strength of those peaks and nulls.

As for "transient response" in subs...that really has nothing to do with it. If you perceive that the depth is faster...great...go for it. People assume larger drivers will sound slower...but larger drivers also have to move less distance to create the same amount of output...so it negates the difference. I have a 12" servo sub (single driver) that I think sounds "faster" than either the depth or descent...just doesn't have the output of the descent.

 

[raygunn]

I use a pair of Depths on my CLS2z's...

Hello all,

i'm actually looking for a Sub to pair with my CL's IIz. I would like to know your advices: which one between the descent or depth? Or is it better to have a look outside ML? Is it better to put 1 or 2 sub's?

Greetz,
Fabio

Hi Fabio,
I played around with a single Descent and that was too directional and too difficult to make "disappear". At first I thought that maybe it was not "fast" enough for the CLS's so I switched to a single Depth.
I found that the single Depth was indeed an easier integration, but it was still directional. So I added a second Depth and this really did the trick.

In my room on most material they integrate seemlessly with the CLS's.
Also, after much trial and error, I settled on a true crossover scenario. In other words, I am not running the CLS's full range and then using the woofers as supplements. This didn't sound quite "right" on vocal and acoustic guitar work. So I am crossing over the CLS's and removing the bass below 100hz. This change greatly exceeded my expectations. Overall, my system is much more dynamic than before and the CLS's can readily handle sharp peaks without any stress at all. I therefore wholeheartedly recomend a Depth (or Depth i) behind each CLS. :clap:

Cheers,
Ray

 

[JONERVI]

[/QUOTE] tonepub

Just another thought, but I would also agree with the two smaller subs rather than one big one. I've had excellent luck with that and other panels. The best bet is to experiment if possible!


I've been using 2 of REL's entry level subs (Q150's) with my Vista's for quite a while, and the results are fantastic.

I have also used dual Grottos with my Vista's with excellent results.

Subwoofer integration for me.... in my space...with my equipment...using a single sub, has always been more difficult.

Hope this helps!!