Advice on upgrading to an external DAC for music listening from a Sonos Connect

[amey01]

Here is the back panel, so it has several options for connections. Im not sure what streamers guys use that are under $1000 that are better than this. Here is the manual:
Sonos CONNECT Manual - usermanual.com
It supports quite a few formats.

" Support for compressed MP3, AAC (without DRM), WMA without DRM
(including purchased Windows Media downloads), AAC (MPEG4), AAC+,
Ogg Vorbis, Apple Lossless, Flac (lossless) music files, as well as
uncompressed WAV and AIFF files.
Native support for 44.1kHz sample rates. Additional support for 48kHz,
32kHz, 24kHz, 22kHz, 16kHz, 11kHz, and 8kHz sample rates. MP3 supports
all rates except 11kHz and 8kHz"

I use it with Apple Lossless now. I dont really play anything other than streaming from Apple now. I could play off my pc since its networked, but have only done it a few times.

Yeah, so that's what I thought. Native support for 44.1 only (that's CD quality).

When most people into streaming are playing DSD128s and 24/192s on a daily basis.......and looking for equipment that will take them into the next phase of up to DSD1024 and 32/768, the Sonos specs look decidedly dumpy.

It has been a limitation of Sonos equipment for years - and they appear to not give two kahoots about addressing it. Which is a shame, because they have one of the best streaming platforms around.

Interestingly enough - most of the DACs including the Denafrips Dac (for one) you referred to above can do all/most of these high-res sample rates.

So if you do go ahead with this, the Sonos becomes a bottleneck which will profoundly hold you back.

The limitation of SPDIF connections are a big factor also. SPDIF is a circa 1970s technology that simply doesn't have the bandwidth to pass ultra high res, and lumps the timing/clock information in with the data.

Im not sure what streamers guys use that are under $1000 that are better than this.

I've said in another threat - a $50 Raspberry Pi will do the trick. But a slightly easier option might be just a Mac Mini?

 

[cahuck]

Here is the back panel, so it has several options for connections. Im not sure what streamers guys use that are under $1000 that are better than this. Here is the manual:
Sonos CONNECT Manual - usermanual.com
It supports quite a few formats.

" Support for compressed MP3, AAC (without DRM), WMA without DRM
(including purchased Windows Media downloads), AAC (MPEG4), AAC+,
Ogg Vorbis, Apple Lossless, Flac (lossless) music files, as well as
uncompressed WAV and AIFF files.
Native support for 44.1kHz sample rates. Additional support for 48kHz,
32kHz, 24kHz, 22kHz, 16kHz, 11kHz, and 8kHz sample rates. MP3 supports
all rates except 11kHz and 8kHz"

I use it with Apple Lossless now. I dont really play anything other than streaming from Apple now. I could play off my pc since its networked, but have only done it a few times.

Connect is supposed to sound better than Port but I am very happy with Port and Schitt modi combo. My limitation is the speakers but still sounds great. The Modi mght improve the connect too. And for $99 its worth trying.

The Sonos Arc has speakers, streamer, dac and amp all for $800. Add $800 sub and $500ea for two Sonos Fives for surround and i think this is the best sub $3,000 home theatre system possible. Apple 4K and Dolby atmos is impressive. Surround music is excellent.
Wondering how much better stereo sound could get I spent $20k plus for the ML 13A and M33. Is it better? Absolutely!! Is it $15k better? Only if you dont mind spending the money!

 

[Matty]

So I sold the PS Audio and went with a Moon Streamer for a while. Then I took that out and I've been using the Holo Audio May KTE for a few months. But that is soon to be replaced by the dCS Bartok.

As far as what I have used for Streaming; I've tried everything possible with my setup. Tried ATV4K into my Marantz, tested a Mac Mini and an iPad Pro into my Marantz. I've used a Bluesound Node, Raspberry PI, Mac Mini, Lumin U1 Mini, and a Sonore Signature Rendu SEoptical for sources into multiple DACs in my rig.

How is the dCS Bartok compared to the Holo May KTE and why the change?

Am considering both those myself....along with the Lumin X1 and the new Sonnet Pasithea.
Struggling to find any comparisons of the four DACs.
Any thoughts or comparisons on those four?

 

[Robert D]

Yeah, so that's what I thought. Native support for 44.1 only (that's CD quality).

When most people into streaming are playing DSD128s and 24/192s on a daily basis.......and looking for equipment that will take them into the next phase of up to DSD1024 and 32/768, the Sonos specs look decidedly dumpy.

It has been a limitation of Sonos equipment for years - and they appear to not give two kahoots about addressing it. Which is a shame, because they have one of the best streaming platforms around.

Interestingly enough - most of the DACs including the Denafrips Dac (for one) you referred to above can do all/most of these high-res sample rates.

So if you do go ahead with this, the Sonos becomes a bottleneck which will profoundly hold you back.

The limitation of SPDIF connections are a big factor also. SPDIF is a circa 1970s technology that simply doesn't have the bandwidth to pass ultra high res, and lumps the timing/clock information in with the data.



I've said in another threat - a $50 Raspberry Pi will do the trick. But a slightly easier option might be just a Mac Mini?

Thanks for the information. I need to look at those options then.

I know nothing about either the mac mini or the raspberry pi. I know of them, thats it.

So this is the mini?
Mac mini - Apple

Id only be using it for playing music. Is there a way to control it with an android phone, or does it have to be Apple? The only other Apple device I have it the Appple TV 4k. The Sonos sound better than it does.

Im not sure how I would even use the Mac mini. Id use the HDMI 2.0 to output the signal to the DAC? Just not sure how I would go about controlling it all. With the Sonos I use my android phone and its real easy.

Another question, does Apple Music stream music with bit rates high enough to even take advantage of the Mac Mini capacity? The Sonos streams lossless audio and flac files, but I could stream music with a much higher rate than those? Not sure what services offer it and just how common it is. Is most music offered in it for streaming? I dont really fool with having to download songs and then play them off a drive. Suppose I could, but it defeats the purpose of streaming. Streaming is less hassle.

 

[Robert D]

Connect is supposed to sound better than Port but I am very happy with Port and Schitt modi combo. My limitation is the speakers but still sounds great. The Modi mght improve the connect too. And for $99 its worth trying.

The Sonos Arc has speakers, streamer, dac and amp all for $800. Add $800 sub and $500ea for two Sonos Fives for surround and i think this is the best sub $3,000 home theatre system possible. Apple 4K and Dolby atmos is impressive. Surround music is excellent.
Wondering how much better stereo sound could get I spent $20k plus for the ML 13A and M33. Is it better? Absolutely!! Is it $15k better? Only if you dont mind spending the money!

Thats why I bought used Prodigy speakers up front. Those have been a good value for me. Just got new panels for them, so they sound about like brand new I imagine.

I did spring for the Foucs center channel new and a BF 210 sub to replace my old depth i which kinda crapped out on me. Ive got a dolby 11 channel setup with the remainders as in wall and in ceiling speakers.

Ive been pretty happy with Sonos over the last 14 years. A few hiccups here and there with their firmware. I had to spend several hours every now and then on the phone with tech. It seems to work better than ever now.

Im not sure why the connect player sounds better than their newer one. Maybe someone here knows why? I can say for sure that the Sonos Connect sounds noticeably better than my brand new Apple tv 4k!

 

[Robert D]

How is the dCS Bartok compared to the Holo May KTE and why the change?

Am considering both those myself....along with the Lumin X1 and the new Sonnet Pasithea.
Struggling to find any comparisons of the four DACs.
Any thoughts or comparisons on those four?

The Lumin is both a DAC and a streamer? So it would take care of both roles? Like my Sonos does now?

LUMIN X1 (luminmusic.com)

 

[amey01]

Thanks for the information. I need to look at those options then.

I know nothing about either the mac mini or the raspberry pi. I know of them, thats it.

So this is the mini?
Mac mini - Apple

Yep, that's it.

Id only be using it for playing music. Is there a way to control it with an android phone, or does it have to be Apple? The only other Apple device I have it the Appple TV 4k. The Sonos sound better than it does.

Im not sure how I would even use the Mac mini. Id use the HDMI 2.0 to output the signal to the DAC? Just not sure how I would go about controlling it all. With the Sonos I use my android phone and its real easy.

The Mac Mini is just a computer. That's all it is. Like the Raspberry Pi - same thing. It allows you to configure it with whatever software you like. Different software has different control options. Many of us use Roon. (Disclaimer: I don't - I use Logitech Media Server).

You'd connect it by plain old USB......to an async USB DAC. This supersedes the SPDIF connection, and allows much more bandwidth and formats to pass through - such as DSD. Even for plain old 44.1k, async USB allows the DAC to control the timing from its clock, meaning the DAC doesn't have to lock to the embedded signal in the SPDIF cable.

Another question, does Apple Music stream music with bit rates high enough to even take advantage of the Mac Mini capacity? The Sonos streams lossless audio and flac files, but I could stream music with a much higher rate than those? Not sure what services offer it and just how common it is. Is most music offered in it for streaming? I dont really fool with having to download songs and then play them off a drive. Suppose I could, but it defeats the purpose of streaming. Streaming is less hassle.

I have no idea sorry about Apple music. I know Tidal does have quite a good library of higher res stuff.

But assuming Apple Music do not have high-res, and this is all you listen to - then there is little point upgrading from the Sonos.

Listening to your own files off a hard drive/server is generally where it is at for ultra high-res stuff.......less convenient than streaming for sure - but hey, we're audiophiles and sometimes we like to seek the best quality no matter the cost to convenience. Look at this way - it is a darn sight more convenient than spinning vinyl!

 

[amey01]

The Lumin is both a DAC and a streamer? So it would take care of both roles? Like my Sonos does now?

LUMIN X1 (luminmusic.com)

Hey - best you check out the recent "Any good media streamers........." thread

https://www.martinloganowners.com/t...ers-coming-out-or-just-released-lately.18351/
A lot has been said in that thread about this sort of thing.

In short, yes you can get an integrated streamer/DAC, but I don't know why you would want to. That's because I don't know why anyone would want to integrate a high end audio component (the DAC) with a network interface (the streamer). You want to be able to upgrade and change out one without impacting the other - especially the network interface side of things, where new software, new network standards, new security etc is required on a regular basis. (Imagine, for instance, being stuck with a streamer that couldn't connect to a 5ghz wifi network) - it just doesn't make sense integrating the two - but each to their own.

 

[Matty]

The Lumin is both a DAC and a streamer? So it would take care of both roles? Like my Sonos does now?

LUMIN X1 (luminmusic. com)

Yes, as does the dCS Bartok...
May Kte & Sonnet Pasitea just DACs of course.
X1, Bartok, and Pasitea will all handle MQA while the May KTE won't.
Am wondering more about the difference in sound....

 

[Robert D]

Looks like the Lumin D2 would be in my price range. By saying its a streamer, it can stream the music and also has a DAC in there that is much better than the Sonos? So I could basically just connect that to my Marantz receiver? I guess use the RCA jacks to output the analog?

LUMIN D2 (luminmusic.com)
Lumin D2 Network Music Player – Upscale Audio

 

[Robert D]

Hey - best you check out the recent "Any good media streamers........." thread

https://www.martinloganowners.com/t...ers-coming-out-or-just-released-lately.18351/
A lot has been said in that thread about this sort of thing.

In short, yes you can get an integrated streamer/DAC, but I don't know why you would want to. That's because I don't know why anyone would want to integrate a high end audio component (the DAC) with a network interface (the streamer). You want to be able to upgrade and change out one without impacting the other - especially the network interface side of things, where new software, new network standards, new security etc is required on a regular basis. (Imagine, for instance, being stuck with a streamer that couldn't connect to a 5ghz wifi network) - it just doesn't make sense integrating the two - but each to their own.

Great point. Wont the DAC tech upgrade too though, and what you have become obsolete just like the streamer?

 

[Robert D]

That Lumin D2 seems like a real winner, and is within my budget. It would be nice to have it all in one box, as far as keeping everything simple. I see it doesnt support Apple Music, but has Tidal and Quobuz.

Does anyone have a preference between those 2 services? Thanks for the participation in my thread. My knowledge on this stuff is kinda low! For me Sonos is high tech,lol.

 

[amey01]

Great point. Wont the DAC tech upgrade too though, and what you have become obsolete just like the streamer?

May be......but why tie one to the other?

 

[amey01]

That Lumin D2 seems like a real winner, and is within my budget. It would be nice to have it all in one box, as far as keeping everything simple. I see it doesnt support Apple Music, but has Tidal and Quobuz.

Precisely! You're making your own point for yourself. Why do you want to be limited by that sort of thing? If it doesn't support the music service you want to use today (or tomorrow) then there really is no point. It's just a limitation that doesn't have to be there. If you have a computer like the Mac Mini, then you can configure it any way you please.

 

[Robert D]

Precisely! You're making your own point for yourself. Why do you want to be limited by that sort of thing? If it doesn't support the music service you want to use today (or tomorrow) then there really is no point. It's just a limitation that doesn't have to be there. If you have a computer like the Mac Mini, then you can configure it any way you please.

Well, I think Tidal and Quobuz have the highest quality streaming quality anyhow? Back when I switched to Apple Music I saw that those 2 services have the higher quality streaming. I went with Apple because it's lower priced and my Sonos couldn't make use of those higher quality formats anyhow.

With the Lumin I could. I'm not married to Apple. The only two services I've used are Napster(Rhapsody) and Apple now for only about 3 months. Was with Rhapsody for about 13 years.

 

[amey01]

Well, I think Tidal and Quobuz have the highest quality streaming quality anyhow? Back when I switched to Apple Music I saw that those 2 services have the higher quality streaming. I went with Apple because it's lower priced and my Sonos couldn't make use of those higher quality formats anyhow.

With the Lumin I could. I'm not married to Apple. The only two services I've used are Napster(Rhapsody) and Apple now for only about 3 months. Was with Rhapsody for about 13 years.

Fair comment. Agree - Tidal and Qobuz are probably the best two - if that's the direction you want to head. So long as you understand the consequences of that decision, all is good!

 

[Robert D]

Does anyone use Tidal or Qobuz? Wonder how you rate their service compared to others. How does the size of the library compare? Do you ever have songs drop out? Dropping out became really bad on Napster and that's why I dropped it and went to Apple. The connection to Apple is much better.

 

[amey01]

Does anyone use Tidal or Qobuz? Wonder how you rate their service compared to others. How does the size of the library compare? Do you ever have songs drop out? Dropping out became really bad on Napster and that's why I dropped it and went to Apple. The connection to Apple is much better.

You'd have to try it, as servers across the world are different - but I don't have any issue with Tidal.

 

[JLasher22443]

How is the dCS Bartok compared to the Holo May KTE and why the change?

Am considering both those myself....along with the Lumin X1 and the new Sonnet Pasithea.
Struggling to find any comparisons of the four DACs.
Any thoughts or comparisons on those four?

The dCS just betters it in every way IMHO. Did a small write up in this thread here.

dCS is about to raise their prices just like everyone else so that is why I jumped on it now. I knew when I had it in my room and compared it to all the others I had; that I had to have it in my system.

Lumin makes great gear! And I can say that the one setup that has been in my rig that could almost compete with the dCS Bartok was the Lumin U1 Mini into the PS Audio DSD. Those two pieces had great synergy and I'm considering buying the Lumin again to feed into the dCS. But right now the Sonore I have is pretty amazing. I've also thought about building a Silent Fanless PC and using JCAT Parts to feed into the dCS like the YouTuber OCD HiFi Guy built.

Sorry but I can't really compare all 4 units since I haven't heard the Lumin X1 or the Sonnet in my system. But the specs on both look great and if the X1 performs as well as the increased price over the U1 Mini, I bet its Amazing! Well it better be. LMAO!

Good luck in your journey. Testing new gear in my rig and making changes is the fun part of this hobby for me. I could spend every waking minute in my room messing with stuff and listening to music to see if what I did sounds better or worse. I'd love to own a shop so I could get paid to play with gear all day but I probably wouldn't sell much because I'd be busy playing instead of selling. LOL

 

[JLasher22443]

Does anyone use Tidal or Qobuz? Wonder how you rate their service compared to others. How does the size of the library compare? Do you ever have songs drop out? Dropping out became really bad on Napster and that's why I dropped it and went to Apple. The connection to Apple is much better.

I have both services and run them both with Roon. No complaints here at all. Never have an issue with finding the music I want to play. If one doesn't have the album the other does. And most albums are in different formats for comparison.