Advice on ML with subwoofer

[wardy2005]

Hello

I have a pair of ML Aeons that I use with a Primare 30.1 stereo amp in main hi-fi room - about 6 or 7 years old.

I have recently set up seperate small system in my den, using Anthony Gallo Adiva Ti with Gallo powered subwoofer - mostly for use with iTunes etc.

This makes me feel that my beloved MLs are not up to the job, espeically in the bass department. When I listen to my ML's the sound seems 'thin'.

The Gallos are wonderfully transparent, with an electrostatic like quality in the mid/upper range, but have a fuller and punchier bass. Unless played at higher volumes the MLs now sound like a poor relation.

Up until now I had not even considered pairing my MLs with a subwoofer but I now think this might be the right thing to do. I have even considered replacing them with a Gallo speaker set up, perhaps the reference speakers.

Do more recent ML's address this problem?

Any comments or advice welcome.

Thanks
Wardy

 

[twich54]

Do more recent ML's address this problem?

Any comments or advice welcome.

Thanks
Wardy

Wardy......Welcome !

To answer your question...absolutely ! most notibly the Summitt's

For me, I've mated my Vantage's to a sub and couldn't be happier !

 

[wardy2005]

Dave (Twitch54)
Thanks for the reply. Are you saying - add a sub to my existing MLs but that on the other hand Summit may not need a sub? Have I go that right ?

Thanks again
Wardy

 

[Burke]

Correct,

I have a pair of Summits and a Descent i sub. I only use the sub for HT and multi-channel SACDs (LFE channel only). In my opinion the Summits do not need a sub for music.

The Vistas they replaced did sound better with one.

The other thing that affects the bass in ML speakers is the amp. Good bass requires a good SS amp, even with the Summits and their powered woofers. When I upgraded from my receiver to a Sunfire and then again to the Sanders ESL, I noticed a difference in the quality of the bass.

First thing I would check is the amp you have up to the task. It it is the yes, I would get a good sub, such as the Depth or Descent to mate with your Ascents. or you could upgrade to the Summits.

--burke

 

[jjay]

My previous setup was ML Aeon 1 speakers and added a ML Grotto because the Aeon speakers were bass shy. I upgraded later to ML Vantage and I still have my ML Grotto in my system. The Vantage speakers do not need the sub but I already had one so I left it in and set the crossover to 35. The ML Aeon need a sub in my opinion if you desire low bass but the Vantages did not.
The Aeon with a ML Grotto will get you 90 per cent to the Vantages in my opinion. You can pickup a ML Grotto on Audiogon in the $600.00 range.
Jim

 

[jjay]

The other thing that affects the bass in ML speakers is the amp. Good bass requires a good SS amp, even with the Summits and their powered woofers. When I upgraded from my receiver to a Sunfire and then again to the Sanders ESL, I noticed a difference in the quality of the bass. [/QUOTE

I noticed this myself when I upgraded my amp from a Rotel to the
McIntosh MC252. Since the Summits and the Vantage speakers have powered woofers, why would the amp affect the bass when the woofer is powered?
Jim

 

[Gordon]

I also wonder why?

 

[Burke]

I was puzzled by that as well but it does make a big difference in the bass.

my 's.w.a.g.' is that the ESL panels taxes the amps enough with the high frequencies that the low suffer as well.

 

[Rich]

Since the Summits and the Vantage speakers have powered woofers, why would the amp affect the bass when the woofer is powered?

I have noticed this before too, when comparing an Anthem and a Sunfire amplifier on the Vantages. The difference in bass was like night and day. The Anthem was loose and wooly; the Sunfire was deep and tight.

So I specifically asked one of the ML engineers about it at our get-together last year. He said basically that the internal amp can only amplify the quality of the signal that it receives. Rhetorically speaking: garbage-in = garbage-out.

I don't think it is solely about the absolute build quality of the amp though. I imagine that some amps just have a better synergy with ML's internal circuitry and digital amp than others do. From experience, I can tell you that the Sanders Sound Systems amps, the Sunfire amps, and the Pass Labs amps all sound great with the Summit's woofers.

 

[jjay]

I don't think it is solely about the absolute build quality of the amp though. I imagine that some amps just have a better synergy with ML's internal circuitry and digital amp than others do. From experience, I can tell you that the Sanders Sound Systems amps, the Sunfire amps, and the Pass Labs amps all sound great with the Summit's woofers.

Well, from my experience, you can add McIntosh to this list when you include Vantage's powered woofers.
Jim

 

[Ron]

Well, from my experience, you can add McIntosh to this list when you include Vantage's powered woofers.
Jim

I could not agree more.

 

[Nielsen]

My previous setup was ML Aeon 1 speakers and added a ML Grotto because the Aeon speakers were bass shy. I upgraded later to ML Vantage and I still have my ML Grotto in my system. The Vantage speakers do not need the sub but I already had one so I left it in and set the crossover to 35. The ML Aeon need a sub in my opinion if you desire low bass but the Vantages did not.
The Aeon with a ML Grotto will get you 90 per cent to the Vantages in my opinion. You can pickup a ML Grotto on Audiogon in the $600.00 range.
Jim

I just wonder, what is the opinion about the Dynamo sub here ?
As wardy2005 I have Aeon, but the "I" model, and what a tremendous difference the ambience tweeter does to the , well, ambience.
I also considered Vista if money fell my way, which I dont expect, but anyhow...
Regarding the subwoofer, I am interested in opinions about either double Dynamoes or a single Grotto, or other combos of the subs ML makes.

 

[jjay]

I had the Aeon I model also. The Grotto sub I own is the older model and I still have it in my system. It works great with the Aeon 1 speakers. The Grotto sub added the needed bass I desired. As I mentioned before, the Vantage speakers did not need a subwoofer to achieve good bass.
Jim

 

[C.A.P]

There is not a Martin Logan that cant benefit from a sub. That being said the Summit is damn good to about 25 hz with a good room set up. Will a sub help it with HT yes with most 2 channel audio its fine. The older smaller designs will all benefit from a sub in a big way. The hardest part is integrating the right sub at the right location. Placement Placement Placement .......The phase and the X over setting being a close second. Most people X over subs to high as its easy because the upper bass is alluring with its tight punch and new found sound. However; it tends to localize the sub more. This can be helped with the final tweak, the phase. Phase is timing actually. Its best to get a sub with variable phase adjustment, not just one that does 180*. When setting up start with the sub in your chair and do the "subwoofer Crawl" . Listen for the best bass. When you find that spot do a 180* with your sub and place it there . Then start to adjust the settings. I always start at the lowest x over setting that I can and slowly bring it up to blend. The phase I like to start at 90* out then adjust accordingly. Subs can be a blessing , but set up wrong they can be a curse.