Adjusting Rake on Spires

[daveneumann]

I'd like to try my Spires at a 90 degree angle, but I can't seem to get there with the stock spikes. If I screw in the front spikes all the way (with the round nut removed) and if I loosen the rear spikes as much as I can but still be stable, the speakers are still not at 90 degrees.

How have others done this with the spikes that come with the speakers? Is it even possible, or do I need to get different spikes?

Thanks for any info.

 

[sleepysurf]

A little birdie told me that ML will soon be offering the stock Summit X adjustable legs as an aftermarket upgrade for the original Summits. If the Spire has the same threaded bolt size for the leg assembly, it's possible the Summit X legs will also work for the Spire. Check with ML to find out.

 

[Gordon]

Dave, what I did was remove the intermediate spacer on the front legs. Using the rubber feet, this gave me about 1/4 inch clearance from the front bottom to the floor.

By removing the spacer, the rake was very close to being plumb and there was enough thread on the rear to get it perfect.

I then replaced the rubber feet with the cones resting on BDR pits. This combination raised the front to 1.5 inch speaker to floor. The speakers took on a new presentation. It is very appealing to my ear.

I'm thinking raising the speaker by that amount brought a new segment of the panel a bit more into focus or took one out! Either way, I like the result.

Gordon

 

[David Matz]

How close are you guys to the speakers? Are you trying to get your ears to be at the midpoint of the panel?

Thanks

PS. Dave Neumann, I love that picture of Jerry. Have you heard the recently released To Terrapin and the Winterland 1973 boxed set? Great music, great recordings!

 

[wings]

Spires @ 90 degree Rake

If you remove the front spikes altogether and adjust the rears you should get the 90 degree rake angle. I have tried this twice (different locations in room) and at first it sounded great, but critical listening proved it to be wrong...at least for me in my listening room. ( I think it also depends on how much the speakers are facing forward or toward the listening position).

 

[Gordon Gray]

Need to make sure the speaker / floor interface is as "solid" as possible.

Some may not like what they hear as a result of insufficient rigidity, causing cabinet / panel vibration.

See my system pictures as one example.

GG

 

[Gordon]

My speakers are 59 inches off the front wall, 29 from the side, 6 1/2 foot apart center to center and I sit 11ft back with hardly any toe, perhaps 1/4 inch.

Gordon

 

[FOUNTAIN]

How close are you guys to the speakers? Are you trying to get your ears to be at the midpoint of the panel?

Thanks

Hi David, I sit approximately 11' 9" from my Vantages and they are 7' 3" apart from each other (center to center). The panels are about 74" off the back wall and 30" off the side wall. As for the toe in, it appears to be around 1". Of course these were the measurements that worked best for my room and situation so these distances will probably be useless for you.

As to your second question, yes, I have the midpoint of the panel angled toward the center of my ears. This puts the panel tiltled a little past vertical in order to achieve the desired midpoint. Jim Smith recommended this method for "screen" speakers and I must admit it really does sound better this way.

Glen

 

[FOUNTAIN]

I'd like to try my Spires at a 90 degree angle, but I can't seem to get there with the stock spikes. If I screw in the front spikes all the way (with the round nut removed) and if I loosen the rear spikes as much as I can but still be stable, the speakers are still not at 90 degrees.

How have others done this with the spikes that come with the speakers? Is it even possible, or do I need to get different spikes?

Thanks for any info.

Hello Dave, I too had this same problem but I found someone selling some older model Martin Logan spikes and this did the job for me. Although this was not a perfect solution because the spikes will not screw in all the way since they are slightly larger. I kept the original spikes in the front and used the larger ones in the back. This allowed me to achieve a little past vertical rake.

Glen

 

[Gordon]

Glen, so are you saying your past vertical? I've never tried that angle before and wonder, what does it do for you?

Gordon

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Glen, so are you saying your past vertical? I've never tried that angle before and wonder, what does it do for you?

Gordon

Hey Gordon, yes I am actually a little past vertical. In the book "Get Better Sound" Jim talks about this in one of his tips. In my feeble attempt I raised the back end of the Logan's to have the midpoint of the panel level with my ears, but I went overboard on accident. When Jim came to my house to voice my room he demonstrated how to do this correctly, and explained the reason he felt this was a better approach to getting the best sound from the Vantages. I have a review of his visit on my member's system page which touches on this point, but the purpose is to allow the music from the panel to arrive at your ears all at the same time. His thinking was if the sound from the top or bottom section of the panel were reaching your ears first then this would cause a smearing of the music due to the different time arrivals from the rest of the panel. As for the results, I would have to agree with him that this does seem to be the best method to my ears. Of course depending on how high your chair is and/or how tall you are will determine as to how far the rake will have to be forward or backwards. If you are fairly tall or sit in a higher style chair then a vertical rake or even less than vertical may be the spot for your ears to line up with the midpoint of the panel. I kind of slouch some when I listen so this probably attributed to some of the additional angle on the rake, but if your listening chair is low to the ground then an even more extreme rake would be required. It's worth trying I think.

Glen

 

[daveneumann]

Thanks...

For all of the great information! I am going to check out those Summit X adjustable spikes from ML or may look into some of the threaded Audio Point spikes.

My speakers are set up 60" from the front wall, 20" from the side walls and about 7.5' apart. I sit about 9' from the speakers. The speakers are toed in so that they cross about 5' behind my head.

Dave

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Glen,

I'm confused but that's easily done.

It seems to me that the only way you'll eliminate any time arrival delay from the panel is to have it exactly perpendicular.

How does "past vertical" achieve this result?

GG

 

[Victor]

Hey Gordon, yes I am actually a little past vertical. In the book "Get Better Sound" Jim talks about this in one of his tips. In my feeble attempt I raised the back end of the Logan's to have the midpoint of the panel level with my ears, but I went overboard on accident. When Jim came to my house to voice my room he demonstrated how to do this correctly, and explained the reason he felt this was a better approach to getting the best sound from the Vantages. I have a review of his visit on my member's system page which touches on this point, but the purpose is to allow the music from the panel to arrive at your ears all at the same time. His thinking was if the sound from the top or bottom section of the panel were reaching your ears first then this would cause a smearing of the music due to the different time arrivals from the rest of the panel. As for the results, I would have to agree with him that this does seem to be the best method to my ears. Of course depending on how high your chair is and/or how tall you are will determine as to how far the rake will have to be forward or backwards. If you are fairly tall or sit in a higher style chair then a vertical rake or even less than vertical may be the spot for your ears to line up with the midpoint of the panel. I kind of slouch some when I listen so this probably attributed to some of the additional angle on the rake, but if your listening chair is low to the ground then an even more extreme rake would be required. It's worth trying I think.

Glen

Hi Glen,
Useful info .... As a fellow Vantage user how did you succeed in getting your Vantages to that angle? Unfortunately the spikes aren't as substantial as on the Spires/Summits so the risk of snapping (or vibrating loose) is a worry?

To obtain true linear phase (with the Bass unit) I guess a backwards tilt or elevating the speaker on a block of concrete would be the best option? However, thinking in terms of the panel's phase alignment only, since the vertical dispersion of a panel appears limited, I was a bit confused by references to the extreme top/bottom of the panel but still feel Jim's point about bringing the panel more into angular alignment with your ears is good advice. (A true vertical is probably ideal if your head is on a true vertical! )

My panels are just a degree or 2 behind true vertical - largely due to the same limitations as Dave has mentioned rather than listening preference
If ML made longer (and stronger) spikes available as an aftermarket accessory they'd clean up for sure !

The above notwithstanding, you've got me thinking about changing the angles again....

Kind regards.............................Victor.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Hi Glen,

I'm confused but that's easily done.

It seems to me that the only way you'll eliminate any time arrival delay from the panel is to have it exactly perpendicular.

How does "past vertical" achieve this result?

GG

Hey Gordon, if I understand the reason Jim gave me correctly, it was so that the middle of the panel, the vertical midpoint, was directly in line to your ears. Otherwise you would be listening to the upper or lower region of the panel first then the sound would arrive from the other sections later in time. I'm not sure if your method was the same as mine, but I would place my level at the midpoint of the panel and then adjust it to perpendicular. Once this was at 90 degrees I could slide my level up to the top portion of the panel and the panel was no longer at 90 degrees, the same problem occured at the bottom. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but I could not get the panel to be 90 degrees from the very bottom to the very top. The difference was not huge but there was a different reading on my digital readout from the bottom part as opposed to the top part when the middle read 90 degrees. Of course even when the panel was at 90 degrees at the midpoint, it was not pointing toward the center of my ears. Jim's approach was to adjust the vertical midpoint while aiming a laser toward my ears until that part of the panel was directly in line with my middle ear. Also by doing it this way the side benefit was another accurate way to verify that both speakers had the same rake and I was listening to the same part of the panel on both the right and left speaker. Hopefully this made some sense, but I understand if it muddied the subject more so. I won't pretend to understand why this made a difference or even if it's for the reasons Jim described, but the results for me was a more balanced soundstage from left to right along with a wider sweetspot. Hope that helped some.

Glen

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Hi Glen,
Useful info .... As a fellow Vantage user how did you succeed in getting your Vantages to that angle? Unfortunately the spikes aren't as substantial as on the Spires/Summits so the risk of snapping (or vibrating loose) is a worry?

To obtain true linear phase (with the Bass unit) I guess a backwards tilt or elevating the speaker on a block of concrete would be the best option? However, thinking in terms of the panel's phase alignment only, since the vertical dispersion of a panel appears limited, I was a bit confused by references to the extreme top/bottom of the panel but still feel Jim's point about bringing the panel more into angular alignment with your ears is good advice. (A true vertical is probably ideal if your head is on a true vertical!

My panels are just a degree or 2 behind true vertical - largely due to the same limitations as Dave has mentioned rather than listening preference
If ML made longer (and stronger) spikes available as an aftermarket accessory they'd clean up for sure !

The above notwithstanding, you've got me thinking about changing the angles again....

Kind regards.............................Victor.

Hello Victor, I am using the supplied spikes in the front part of the speakers and some older Martin Logan spikes, I believe they are like the ones supplied with my old Aeon I's, in the back. I picked these spikes up at a store that had them up for sale for years and he gave me a good price so I bought them to experiment with. The positive is that they allow me to get to vertical and even a little past it, but the negative is they will only screw in so far before they get tight. So if I wanted to tilt the rake back below 90 degrees I would most likely have to put back in the supplied spikes. It was a tradeoff and not a perfect solution, but you are right that if Martin Logan offered something that would allow for this type of adjustment then I would be all over it.

Glen

 

[Victor]

Thanks Glen....I'm sure ML have read this sort of thing before but there's no harm in asking again

Trust me...I'm not going to test Jim's theory by tilting my head forward by 2 degrees during listening...at least not while the Wife is watching... .... I prefer to look goofy in private

Best regards .....................Victor

 

[Victor]

Just out of curiosity....has anyone out there tried using thick heavy duty spike shoes at the rear of the speaker to get the extra elevation required ?

Is there likely to be a stability problem (i.e. speaker toppling off because the spike isn't perfectly axial/orthogonal with the shoe) ?
Might be ok as the force exerted by the spike is downward even if the spike is set at a slight angle?