Couldn't there be a microphone that would be on all of the time and analyzing the sound live and making adjustments for each track? AI could do that. That's basically what DLSS does I think. It actively manages the settings on graphics and adjusts them on demand.
A Sincere From My Heart Question Regarding the Future of ML ESL
- Thread starter christopherf
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To the OP, dont think you have to worry about ESLs going away or anything. Having the cone speakers are a way for people to get into the brand. The new motion series is the real deal but still can't dethrone many of the speakers of the current and previous ESL lines I'd take my old Theos, current Monts, or 9/13/15as over the new motions, if you recall your individual auto journey I'm sure you started with X pair of speakers and gone up from there. There probably isn't anything revolutionary technology wise for ML's ESLs for them to really be changing the line. The Masterpiece is still very good, I'm sure they are working on the next generation but may be a few years before it releases. I honestly would like them to make some "new" products like possible bookshelf ESLs or something crazy like that lol. Without going on a long rant/discussion nothing to worry about.
Small bookshelf size would be awesome. Magnepan has something like that. Real small. Some use those for PC gaming. They even have a small one that acts like a subwoofer.
I am a diehard fan of CLS 1 loudspeaker. Compared to ELS 9, CLS 1 deliver comprehensive sonic picture. And sonic precision or focus in spades. In addition, transient sonic effect, detail is more audible and the overall sound is more natural. Keep in mind still have original panel from 1989. Though recently cleaned of dust and repaired. CLS 1 at two thirds amp output is substantially less dynamic or has less volume output when compared to recently produced ELS 9. CLS 1 provide full sonic picture, precision, focus, detail, transient reproduction and natural sonics that ELS 9 unable to match.
Why ML discontinue CLS 2z which is undoubtedly a awesome and amazing loudspeaker? Why not try to make incremental improvements and incorporate newer technology when available. But no Martin Logan had to come out with a new electrostatic speaker at nearly initially 4 times the price of CLS 1. CLX has crossover, has in comparison worse impedance profile, frequency response not go low to the same extent as CLS2z and subjectively I do not like CLX physical structure design. Most significant far more expensive to the consumer than CLS 1 or CLS 2z.
Which come to my next point. The theory of how business firm may operate. Corporations that have primary goal of maximizing market value and are artificial person lack moral values. They do business to earn maximum revenue and and thus try to maximize the value of the firm. In my opinion they do not care about consumers the way doctors care about patients in my homeland.
Business firm marketing or fulfilling wants of consumers can be deemed taking care of consumers. However the intention or motive behind fulfilling wants is self centered profit making and complying with safety regulations. When the underlying factor that causes things to happen is profit motive and not a genuine sincere desire to maximize consumer joy, pleasure of listening to music through providing great value for money loudspeakers. Then most consumers not able to afford high price.
If there was genuine sincere concern for welfare of consumer then goal would be to make reasonable profit not excessive profit. Would involve paying business owner with annual income of $150,000 before tax which may be adequate and not excessive. Do not imagine was impossible for Martin Logan to make and sell CLS 3 for $10,000 and still make adequate profit for owner. They could have done away with expensive, cosmetic or not crucial for sonics solid wood border and still make speaker sound great.
Conclusion:
Martin Logan strategy in the past was inside out and later appears to me to be outside in. For management greater difficulty in tailoring the market to Martin Logan products. Inside out strategy involves building ground breaking products and marketing promotion for consumer marque awareness. In times of crisis, Covid induced supply chain disruption, less risky or effective route is for management through market survey to tailor firm product to consumer target market needs and wants. Cater to target market. Keeps the going concern concept applicable especially in times of crisis.
Just IMHO.
Why ML discontinue CLS 2z which is undoubtedly a awesome and amazing loudspeaker? Why not try to make incremental improvements and incorporate newer technology when available. But no Martin Logan had to come out with a new electrostatic speaker at nearly initially 4 times the price of CLS 1. CLX has crossover, has in comparison worse impedance profile, frequency response not go low to the same extent as CLS2z and subjectively I do not like CLX physical structure design. Most significant far more expensive to the consumer than CLS 1 or CLS 2z.
Which come to my next point. The theory of how business firm may operate. Corporations that have primary goal of maximizing market value and are artificial person lack moral values. They do business to earn maximum revenue and and thus try to maximize the value of the firm. In my opinion they do not care about consumers the way doctors care about patients in my homeland.
Business firm marketing or fulfilling wants of consumers can be deemed taking care of consumers. However the intention or motive behind fulfilling wants is self centered profit making and complying with safety regulations. When the underlying factor that causes things to happen is profit motive and not a genuine sincere desire to maximize consumer joy, pleasure of listening to music through providing great value for money loudspeakers. Then most consumers not able to afford high price.
If there was genuine sincere concern for welfare of consumer then goal would be to make reasonable profit not excessive profit. Would involve paying business owner with annual income of $150,000 before tax which may be adequate and not excessive. Do not imagine was impossible for Martin Logan to make and sell CLS 3 for $10,000 and still make adequate profit for owner. They could have done away with expensive, cosmetic or not crucial for sonics solid wood border and still make speaker sound great.
Conclusion:
Martin Logan strategy in the past was inside out and later appears to me to be outside in. For management greater difficulty in tailoring the market to Martin Logan products. Inside out strategy involves building ground breaking products and marketing promotion for consumer marque awareness. In times of crisis, Covid induced supply chain disruption, less risky or effective route is for management through market survey to tailor firm product to consumer target market needs and wants. Cater to target market. Keeps the going concern concept applicable especially in times of crisis.
Just IMHO.
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The Apple HomePod has a circular array mic that is used when it powers up to capture and then analyze the reflected energy from a tone burst emitted by the speaker array (six tweeters + 1 woofer, all emitting sound omnidirectional). The results are used to compute both EQ and, more importantly, sound-steering information so that a single speaker can 'project' stereo output from the speaker array, leveraging nearby boundaries to provide a decent soundstage.
There is debate about whether they sample in real-time to perform further adjustments as you suggest. But it is known that if the unit detects motion, it automatically recalibrates. But the capabilities of an Apple S7 chip are plenty for all the analysis, decoding, and real-time processing of the audio.
I could see someone like Trinnov writing an iOS app to run on a $299 HomePod to sample audio info and feedback to the processor so that it could dynamically adjust specific parameters (like cranking up low-frequency limiters if the owner is getting too exuberant). This is not real-time, as there is processing and wireless propagation delays to consider. But it would be close enough that many useful things can be done.
My patents are in the field of dynamic adaptation of network gear traffic management to maintain low latencies, so I am pretty familiar with these sample, analyze, and adjust loops.
if they could make the FX2 with an electrostatic on the front i think that be perfect for surround sounds as a 'cheaper' alternative to the EFX
Wow, I didn't know that dynamic network management existed.
Here at home I'm just using the modem provided by Altafiber and an Amplifi wireless router. I run everything hardwired except phones and laptops. I've got a good number of switches too. Fiber runs to the house and we have the 800 mbps service. All of the hardwired stuff gets 800 plus when tested, but wireless is about 1/2 that at best.
I'm wondering why they don't have electrostatic in-walls for surrounds. Perhaps they need a fairly large surface area in order to produce enough sound to be effective? Making them small may not work well? There's a reason the EFX panel is fairly large.
Form follows function.
Reason why Porsche is sleek, low and wide. Road rollers are large and very heavy.
Cheetahs are thin, flexible and sleek. Compared to cheetahs lions are large and somewhat heavier.
etc etc.
Mirolab
Well-known member
So do you really want to fill your home with soulless looking black boxes? (or panels) Speakers are large things, and we look at them and live closely with them every single day of our lives. I do want them to look pleasing. It's very important to me. The oak-trim strips on my old SL3's cannot have added that much to the cost of making the speaker. (far less than the 6 sides of veneer that would go on a traditional box speaker) I do not like the aesthetics of the new ML line with the black frame and extremely deep woofer cab. They look weird to me, and are too deep for my front wall. My SL3's, with their new panels, are still sounding great to me (though I do wish they were bigger). I'd love to see a less-deep 11B or 13B model with a single 12" active woofer.
Some companies offer a black matte finish and it can be as much as $600 less than piano black or stained wood. It would be good to offer that for those of us that aren't as concerned about appearance. I'd rather either pay $600 less or use that money toward a better panel or woofer.
A company needs to offer alternatives to its customers if it wants a large base.
Consider the case of Japanese automobiles. Within Suzuki product range each product has many extra options beyond those provided standard with basic product. The most basic car of each model is the least expensive and options add to luxury or performance just like pizza toppings add to taste or luxury. Pizza sizes can be thought of as engine sizes that affect performance.
Dell does the same in addition offer goods factory direct. Helps to reduce computer sale price.
Conrad Johnson offered improved performance over standard by offering amp internal parts of higher quality and performance.
A word of caution. Some consumers not like basic amp if still expensive and at the same time not quite above a threshold of desired performance. Cut corners but not on performance and quality.
Martin Logan added a wood panel on one side of CLX and increased the price by approximately $4000.
Interesting points as stated above by few members regarding the new look and design of the Masterpiece line and the CLX's.
I'll add my 50cts worth:
1. The new Masterpiece line is a phenomenal breakthrough in hybrid stat design. It incorporates many things that the previous Reserve line or vintage SL series never had nor are any of these previous series capable of what the Masterpiece line can do, no way! Just listen to any Masterpiece series side by side or even do a blind test, as you'll know straight away what I'm referring to. The dsp engines, the Blade stats, the dual-force and rigid bracing in the driver enclosure is what has evolved into a larger enclosure. The drivers are now positioned opposite to each, one firing forwards the other backwards. Due to vibration and internal resonance issues that are typical of conventional box designs, ML has take into consideration all these factors, and formed a formidable hybrid stat design that's capable of competing in the ultra-high-end category. Not a single of ML's previous designs can do this. There's no denying it.
BTW, none of us are electrostat engineers or speaker designers, so for us to criticise any design, shows our ignorance.
2. The CLX Art's
That added piece of hard wood is not just wood added... apart from most who would see it as a cosmetic design, it also adds more weight to the overall structure totalling 55kg. This is not some flimsy stat panel like those others on different brands. The other long fin at the back of the CLX's reinforces the LF wave reproduced by the CLX's double bass panels.
The triple stators in this section are extremely dynamic and can reproduce startling bass with superb impact, speed and agility only found in some very very expensive drivers. The CLX's have very high quality parts, all the way from the caps, to the trannies are top notch. Even the speaker terminals locking collars are solid stainless steel and allow for a fantastic secure connection. In addition to this, there are internal bass switches that allow for further adjustments according to room installations, and this is not covered by the owner's manual, so only a few people know this.
There are obviously ways to further improve the Masterpiece line or the CLX's but taking into consideration what the ML design team has developed, is one superb design both in hybrids and full range stats. I believe the price is fair compared to some absurdity out there.
Again, none of us are electrostat engineers nor speaker designers, so we can only speculate without really knowing the principles of good design. BTW, these aren't for everyone, and not all rooms can accommodate the larger enclosures of the Masterpiece line. Hence, that may well be one of the reasons why ML is focusing more on the EM series. They can easily fit into any type of room but for ESL's they require dedicated rooms or careful room placement with good acoustics to perform optimally. Otherwise there's really no point in spending this kind of money and trying to make it fit, hoping that it would sound great. It doesn't work that way.
3. The other most important factor that I can't stress enough is the associated amplification. If you use mediocre gear to drive the Masterpiece line then you will get mediocre performance. The moment you use amplifiers of great capability, solid design in power supplies and are capable of high current and stable voltage, the Masterpiece line will shift gears into a totally different dimension. I think quite a few members here have already experienced this. Thinking what they had was good enough until they actually tried out quality amps, only then they realised.
With regards to CLX's, well they can't be driven with mediocre gear, unfortunately they will just shut down or sound plain awful. Again, at this level there are no compromises, so if you're willing to spend at this level, your amplification and source gear must be up to par, there are no short cuts.
If you do happen to get a chance to audition either the Masterpiece line or CLX's optimally set up with fine electronics, you'll realise just how far the hybrid and full range stat technology has evolved. It's supreme reference at this level.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ
I'll add my 50cts worth:
1. The new Masterpiece line is a phenomenal breakthrough in hybrid stat design. It incorporates many things that the previous Reserve line or vintage SL series never had nor are any of these previous series capable of what the Masterpiece line can do, no way! Just listen to any Masterpiece series side by side or even do a blind test, as you'll know straight away what I'm referring to. The dsp engines, the Blade stats, the dual-force and rigid bracing in the driver enclosure is what has evolved into a larger enclosure. The drivers are now positioned opposite to each, one firing forwards the other backwards. Due to vibration and internal resonance issues that are typical of conventional box designs, ML has take into consideration all these factors, and formed a formidable hybrid stat design that's capable of competing in the ultra-high-end category. Not a single of ML's previous designs can do this. There's no denying it.
BTW, none of us are electrostat engineers or speaker designers, so for us to criticise any design, shows our ignorance.
2. The CLX Art's
That added piece of hard wood is not just wood added... apart from most who would see it as a cosmetic design, it also adds more weight to the overall structure totalling 55kg. This is not some flimsy stat panel like those others on different brands. The other long fin at the back of the CLX's reinforces the LF wave reproduced by the CLX's double bass panels.
The triple stators in this section are extremely dynamic and can reproduce startling bass with superb impact, speed and agility only found in some very very expensive drivers. The CLX's have very high quality parts, all the way from the caps, to the trannies are top notch. Even the speaker terminals locking collars are solid stainless steel and allow for a fantastic secure connection. In addition to this, there are internal bass switches that allow for further adjustments according to room installations, and this is not covered by the owner's manual, so only a few people know this.
There are obviously ways to further improve the Masterpiece line or the CLX's but taking into consideration what the ML design team has developed, is one superb design both in hybrids and full range stats. I believe the price is fair compared to some absurdity out there.
Again, none of us are electrostat engineers nor speaker designers, so we can only speculate without really knowing the principles of good design. BTW, these aren't for everyone, and not all rooms can accommodate the larger enclosures of the Masterpiece line. Hence, that may well be one of the reasons why ML is focusing more on the EM series. They can easily fit into any type of room but for ESL's they require dedicated rooms or careful room placement with good acoustics to perform optimally. Otherwise there's really no point in spending this kind of money and trying to make it fit, hoping that it would sound great. It doesn't work that way.
3. The other most important factor that I can't stress enough is the associated amplification. If you use mediocre gear to drive the Masterpiece line then you will get mediocre performance. The moment you use amplifiers of great capability, solid design in power supplies and are capable of high current and stable voltage, the Masterpiece line will shift gears into a totally different dimension. I think quite a few members here have already experienced this. Thinking what they had was good enough until they actually tried out quality amps, only then they realised.
With regards to CLX's, well they can't be driven with mediocre gear, unfortunately they will just shut down or sound plain awful. Again, at this level there are no compromises, so if you're willing to spend at this level, your amplification and source gear must be up to par, there are no short cuts.
If you do happen to get a chance to audition either the Masterpiece line or CLX's optimally set up with fine electronics, you'll realise just how far the hybrid and full range stat technology has evolved. It's supreme reference at this level.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ
Just to add on another note referring to the direction of ML's future;
I've owned nearly every Maggie model from the MGIIIA to the MG20.1. With the only exceptions of the MG20.7's and 30.7's. I've had various Infinity's from the Kappa's, Ren90, Epsilon and the IRS 1B's. Also had Apogee Diva's and Quads ESL63, 2905's and 2912's, which I last traded in for the CLX's. Also had two ESL's from the ML reserve line (Ethos and Summit-X).
After migrating to Aus, I also had Wilson's and Magico's, nearly went homeless on the Wilson's, what a disaster that was!
So overall, in all of these systems and the fine gear associated with, these were carefully set-up in dedicated rooms and now having our open plan living area. It takes an awful lot of time and effort to set these up properly, if you wanted to achieve optimal performance. Otherwise, what's the point?
After having sold off the entire rig and migrating to Aus, I had to start all over again. As you all know by now, highend audio in Aus / Oz is very pricey! It took me around 15yrs to get to this system, and finally it's more than adequate for my needs.
From around 2015 to 2018 I was on the quest to finalise speakers, considering our newly designed home. My short list was:
(Note: prices are in $AUD)
1. ML Ren15a $40grand
2. Avant Garde Duo XD's 35grand
3. Maggie MG30.7 48grand
4. Alsyvox Botichelli-X 110grand
5. Genesis 200's 120grand
(Note, the CLX's aren't even on this list)
As time went by, I couldn't find anything perfect that suited budget and room dimensions in an open plan design. So I further extended the search and ended up with these three on my final short list in 2018:
1. ML Ren15a
2. Avant Garde Duo XD's (paid a deposit)
3. Maggie's 30.7's
After lengthy discussions with my ML dealer, he said he's got one last and final pair of a special full range stat that was discontinued for whatever bloody reason... said it was his personal pair, carefully used and in mint condition. I demoed his CLX's with some of the finest Pass Labs gear he had at the time and walked out with the CLX's!
There's no other speaker system I'd rather own.
I feel that considering the crazy stuff I've been through and the good wife having to put up with all my madness, the "new audiophile" simply doesn't have the time nor resources to go through all the effort in building an audiophile system. Room, gear, AC mains distribution, ancillary gear, speakers and electronics... it's huge effort!
Putting together any highend system is an Art form, it takes years to complete. Therefore, I sincerely believe ML can see well into the future the way things are headed... hence the more simple EM series makes far more sense. I'm sure they'll continue with their ESL line but these things will get more and more expensive, which will be accessible only to the high disposable income groups, sadly not your average music lover.
So looking at it from such a perspective, it would be far more sensible to promote the more affordable range, rather than stick with just the expensive stuff. That would be a futile move for ML's future, afterall this is a business, not a charity service.
Nonetheless, regardless of whatever hybrids, latest stats or vintage models, ML's have always offered high performance speakers equivalent to fair pricing. The top-dollar spend on their top of the line series can only be justified by the person spending that kind of money! Comparing any of ML's hybrids to the rest of the highend brands out there and their exorbitant prices, I sincerely believe ML's add true vfm, without a doubt!
Cheers to ML Stats! Gotta luv em!
Woof! RJ
I've owned nearly every Maggie model from the MGIIIA to the MG20.1. With the only exceptions of the MG20.7's and 30.7's. I've had various Infinity's from the Kappa's, Ren90, Epsilon and the IRS 1B's. Also had Apogee Diva's and Quads ESL63, 2905's and 2912's, which I last traded in for the CLX's. Also had two ESL's from the ML reserve line (Ethos and Summit-X).
After migrating to Aus, I also had Wilson's and Magico's, nearly went homeless on the Wilson's, what a disaster that was!
So overall, in all of these systems and the fine gear associated with, these were carefully set-up in dedicated rooms and now having our open plan living area. It takes an awful lot of time and effort to set these up properly, if you wanted to achieve optimal performance. Otherwise, what's the point?
After having sold off the entire rig and migrating to Aus, I had to start all over again. As you all know by now, highend audio in Aus / Oz is very pricey! It took me around 15yrs to get to this system, and finally it's more than adequate for my needs.
From around 2015 to 2018 I was on the quest to finalise speakers, considering our newly designed home. My short list was:
(Note: prices are in $AUD)
1. ML Ren15a $40grand
2. Avant Garde Duo XD's 35grand
3. Maggie MG30.7 48grand
4. Alsyvox Botichelli-X 110grand
5. Genesis 200's 120grand
(Note, the CLX's aren't even on this list)
As time went by, I couldn't find anything perfect that suited budget and room dimensions in an open plan design. So I further extended the search and ended up with these three on my final short list in 2018:
1. ML Ren15a
2. Avant Garde Duo XD's (paid a deposit)
3. Maggie's 30.7's
After lengthy discussions with my ML dealer, he said he's got one last and final pair of a special full range stat that was discontinued for whatever bloody reason... said it was his personal pair, carefully used and in mint condition. I demoed his CLX's with some of the finest Pass Labs gear he had at the time and walked out with the CLX's!
There's no other speaker system I'd rather own.
I feel that considering the crazy stuff I've been through and the good wife having to put up with all my madness, the "new audiophile" simply doesn't have the time nor resources to go through all the effort in building an audiophile system. Room, gear, AC mains distribution, ancillary gear, speakers and electronics... it's huge effort!
Putting together any highend system is an Art form, it takes years to complete. Therefore, I sincerely believe ML can see well into the future the way things are headed... hence the more simple EM series makes far more sense. I'm sure they'll continue with their ESL line but these things will get more and more expensive, which will be accessible only to the high disposable income groups, sadly not your average music lover.
So looking at it from such a perspective, it would be far more sensible to promote the more affordable range, rather than stick with just the expensive stuff. That would be a futile move for ML's future, afterall this is a business, not a charity service.
Nonetheless, regardless of whatever hybrids, latest stats or vintage models, ML's have always offered high performance speakers equivalent to fair pricing. The top-dollar spend on their top of the line series can only be justified by the person spending that kind of money! Comparing any of ML's hybrids to the rest of the highend brands out there and their exorbitant prices, I sincerely believe ML's add true vfm, without a doubt!
Cheers to ML Stats! Gotta luv em!
Woof! RJ
roberto
Well-known member
I want to add that ML factory had invest a lot in special machinery to make that stat panels at very precise specifications. It is not an easy task to make the stat panels. Also the research in a curvilinear stat panel, to find the 30º angle took a lot of listening time and effort experience. Building a transparent transducer is not easy. Also, the stats have incredible specs like the diaphragm, that one, the one that you have in your speakers, weights less than the air that it moves!!!. This is no joke and makes that fastest speaker on Mother Earth. It is almost a mirror image of the signal applied to it.
110% agreed Robbo mate.
This extremely light Mylar, which is even lighter than the pure ribbon foil, is the perfect interface to signal response it was first discovered by R Kellogg somewhere in the 20's. At that time they couldn't make it commercially viable due to unstable materials being used at the time. So the project was shelved for nearly 30yrs until Peter Walker of Quad released the first full range stat. I think before that, the KLH panels were quite successful but they were not as advanced as the Quad ESL's.
Then came along many others including ML and the rest is history.
Electrostats are the closest approach to the original recording.
Cheers, RJ
Agreed.
Although in the '70's there was a speaker that used a plasma as the speaker material : "The Hill Plasmatronic Gas Discharge Speaker". You
had to connect a tank of helium to the speaker since I think Helium was used as the plasma material.
Plasma is virtually massless.
Not very practical though.
They were useless for anything below 1kHz however. But evidently there are some still around.
Here's the Wikipedia link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_speaker
Oh dear Mr. Frank, you sure have lots of time on your hand. God bless you! I do own Pass Labs gear and I do not care how long Nelson is going to live (hopfully he will blow 100 candles on his cake one day). The product is phenomenal. I also own the modest Theos and does not matter whether ESLs will go on or not. Just enjoy them while you can. Life is too short. If and when they break down, cannot be repaired and are no longer available; you go and find another outstanding brand that suites your taste. Take care for now and do not over-think it.
