13A Panel Warranty

[andrew.hendler]

Hi All -

I have a partial panel defect in my left 13a panel.

I've verified with my dealer as we swapped transformers and it's the panel.

They are 2.5 years into a 5 year warranty.

Does Martin Logan provide panels in pairs for warranty replacement, or do they only provide individual panels? I asked my dealer and he wasn't certain.

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[Robert D]

Whats the symptom of the defect? How does the bad panel sound different? I'm curious. That's disturbing to me that it's not 3 years old and already having problems. Do you live in a humid area?

 

[andrew.hendler]

Whats the symptom of the defect? How does the bad panel sound different? I'm curious. That's disturbing to me that it's not 3 years old and already having problems. Do you live in a humid area?

No I don’t live in a humid area, and it’s air conditioned all the time. I think it’s just a freak defect. Basically the top 8 inches of the panel is much lower in volume than the rest. I’ve played pink noise to compare both panels, and the highs are gone in the 8 inches of space on the left panel compared to the right.

I heard back from my dealer and ML is willing to replace the panel under warranty but I have to buy the other panel if I want a pair. Seems like they should both be replaced under warranty for speakers this expensive - but I want the panels to match so I’ll end up buying the other panel anyway.

 

[amey01]

No I don’t live in a humid area, and it’s air conditioned all the time. I think it’s just a freak defect. Basically the top 8 inches of the panel is much lower in volume than the rest. I’ve played pink noise to compare both panels, and the highs are gone in the 8 inches of space on the left panel compared to the right.

I heard back from my dealer and ML is willing to replace the panel under warranty but I have to buy the other panel if I want a pair. Seems like they should both be replaced under warranty for speakers this expensive - but I want the panels to match so I’ll end up buying the other panel anyway.

They must be in pairs, surely?

I thought they only manufacture / package / sell / ship them in pairs. Not sure how they'd even supply a single - unless something has changed?

Although when I had issues with my Vista panels 15 years ago, they did try to argue that wrinkles in the panel were "normal" and "didn't affect sound".

My conclusion was same as you - when we're talking about a product this expensive, the parlances "compromise", "near enough is good enough", and "make-do" doesn't come into it.

More significant than the cost, is the ratio of premium over a standard pair of speakers. When people pay this much of a premium over a pair of bog-standard Sony (or similar) speakers, it's reasonable to expect that "good enough" is not part of the equation.

 

[andrew.hendler]

They must be in pairs, surely?

I thought they only manufacture / package / sell / ship them in pairs. Not sure how they'd even supply a single - unless something has changed?

Although when I had issues with my Vista panels 15 years ago, they did try to argue that wrinkles in the panel were "normal" and "didn't affect sound".

My conclusion was same as you - when we're talking about a product this expensive, the parlances "compromise", "near enough is good enough", and "make-do" doesn't come into it.

More significant than the cost, is the ratio of premium over a standard pair of speakers. When people pay this much of a premium over a pair of bog-standard Sony (or similar) speakers, it's reasonable to expect that "good enough" is not part of the equation.

That's what I thought. Every pair of high end speakers or headphones I have - if a driver goes out it's replaced in pairs. My dealer has been working with Martin Logan (and my dealer is very trustworthy), and they said Martin Logan came back with the offer to replace one under warranty. I initially pushed back on that - as my dealer had indicated they would replace the panel - not panel(s). I said, they wouldn't be matched and I wanted both panels replaced. They pushed on it for me and still, this is what they came back with.

It's $1300 for the second panel which is not cheap, but I don't have the energy/time to continue to fight for it - at that price, I just want to get the speakers back, as I greatly enjoy them. It's very bizarre to me as well, especially for an upmarket speaker like the 13a.

Unfortunately, not quit the famed Martin Logan customer service I've heard about. Maybe the policies have changed, who knows.

 

[sleepysurf]

... Basically the top 8 inches of the panel is much lower in volume than the rest. I’ve played pink noise to compare both panels, and the highs are gone in the 8 inches of space on the left panel compared to the right...

I'm curious how you isolated the defect as being an 8" segment in one panel? Did you play pink noise through both speakers and place a calibrated mic close to each panel and measure SPL's while moving mic vertically to compare both?

As an owner of 8 y/o Expressions, I'm dismayed to hear about ML refusing to provide a matched pair of panels under warranty. However, before buying the 2nd one, I'd see how closely the new single panel matches the frequency response of the other one. In 2007, when some of us toured the ML Factory (still in Lawrence, KS at the time) they showed us how each panel is measured to confirm a consistent frequency response. I presume their technology and quality control is even better now, so it's quite possible they would still match quite well.

 

[sleepysurf]

Hmmm. Just noticed a similar issue reported with an ESL X panel... https://www.martinloganowners.com/t...ps-don’t-emit-sound-at-all.20136/#post-214362

I hope this isn't an indication of panel manufacturing issues.

 

[amey01]

I'm curious how you isolated the defect as being an 8" segment in one panel? Did you play pink noise through both speakers and place a calibrated mic close to each panel and measure SPL's while moving mic vertically to compare both?

As an owner of 8 y/o Expressions, I'm dismayed to hear about ML refusing to provide a matched pair of panels under warranty. However, before buying the 2nd one, I'd see how closely the new single panel matches the frequency response of the other one. In 2007, when some of us toured the ML Factory (still in Lawrence, KS at the time) they showed us how each panel is measured to confirm a consistent frequency response. I presume their technology and quality control is even better now, so it's quite possible they would still match quite well.

It doesn't matter how well they match, at 3 years old, there is aging (and even running in) to consider as well. The chance of me accepting that is ..... start at zero and work backwards.

 

[andrew.hendler]

I'm curious how you isolated the defect as being an 8" segment in one panel? Did you play pink noise through both speakers and place a calibrated mic close to each panel and measure SPL's while moving mic vertically to compare both?

As an owner of 8 y/o Expressions, I'm dismayed to hear about ML refusing to provide a matched pair of panels under warranty. However, before buying the 2nd one, I'd see how closely the new single panel matches the frequency response of the other one. In 2007, when some of us toured the ML Factory (still in Lawrence, KS at the time) they showed us how each panel is measured to confirm a consistent frequency response. I presume their technology and quality control is even better now, so it's quite possible they would still match quite well.

No, transparently I didn’t go that far. I played pink noise, but the difference was so significant and obvious between the top 8 inches of each panel, that beyond a normal SPL meter, I didn’t go further to check it. If you listened to it up at the panel you would know what I mean; there are no highs in one panel, and highs in the other panel are normal. I’d be happy to do more tests if ML asks me.

The issue started because the soundstage was shifted to the right and I was trying to determine why. I did the typical troubleshooting of switching channels and switching power supplies. I also vacuumed both panels as well - though they appeared clean as can be. When I played pink noise it became obvious that one section of the speaker was not operating correctly because it wasn’t particularly close.

 

[Duke]

You are a well to do person if you purchase the 13a new from a dealer.
Please consider replacing the provided new panel and then verify if the working older panel of the pair makes a noticeable difference in your perception of sound matching.
Because you are the first owner, 2.5 years on what is probably a 20 year (or more) panel life may not make a material difference in the quality of the output. I did not use a dealer and doesn't reflect the cost to your dealer who offers their help which is great of them.

My speakers are not the 13a. I changed my panels maybe 3 to 4 times out of warranty and only once did I have a short life problem in one panel of a pair of new replacement panels. I relied upon Martin Logan's policy on replacement panels.
This is what I experienced. Martin Logan offered a single panel. It was a savings to have one gratis and I did ask for two for the same reason you have.
I decided to replace both panels by paying for the second panel not covered at a cost very close to your cost. Net 1/2 price panels with a usable spare.
Now I keep the brand new panel in the provided shipping box as a spare. I don't have to deal with down time on the system in the future having a spare.

It turned out that it was not needed when using pink noise and FLAC and WAV test tones with my PAA6 using a Lexicon front end for bass management. Recently I bought a Trinnov. The Trinnov calibrator could not notice an output difference with his Earthworks microphones using test tones and pink noise. I could not notice a difference and trust me, I did try.
It turned out my concern which is basically your concern was unfounded using equipment. It is a dilemma and forward looking enthusiasts such as yourself rightfully have this concern with a speaker so revealing. You seem to love the speaker line like I do.
1. Take the free one with the stipulation you can purchase the second panel if you are able to notice a difference later on. I recommend you rotate the speakers so that the center of the curved panel hits you directly instead of the Martin Logan headlamp thing when doing this test. We tested nearfield, about 9.5 feet away.
2. Buy a panel to go with your free panel up front and end up with a spare for the future.

 

[amey01]

may not make a material difference in the quality of the output.

Again, at the cost, this is a high-end, perfectionist product. Hoping you "may not" notice a "material" difference shouldn't be part of the equation.

High-end speakers require significant compromise to accommodate them. Not only the cost (of course) - but also the space required, setup, complexity of use, purchase of supporting equipment, etc.

I'd bet that people wouldn't tend to make those sort of compromises if near enough was good enough. A Samsung sound bar will give you "near enough".

 

[andrew.hendler]

You are a well to do person if you purchase the 13a new from a dealer.
Please consider replacing the provided new panel and then verify if the working older panel of the pair makes a noticeable difference in your perception of sound matching.
Because you are the first owner, 2.5 years on what is probably a 20 year (or more) panel life may not make a material difference in the quality of the output. I did not use a dealer and doesn't reflect the cost to your dealer who offers their help which is great of them.

My speakers are not the 13a. I changed my panels maybe 3 to 4 times out of warranty and only once did I have a short life problem in one panel of a pair of new replacement panels. I relied upon Martin Logan's policy on replacement panels.
This is what I experienced. Martin Logan offered a single panel. It was a savings to have one gratis and I did ask for two for the same reason you have.
I decided to replace both panels by paying for the second panel not covered at a cost very close to your cost. Net 1/2 price panels with a usable spare.
Now I keep the brand new panel in the provided shipping box as a spare. I don't have to deal with down time on the system in the future having a spare.

It turned out that it was not needed when using pink noise and FLAC and WAV test tones with my PAA6 using a Lexicon front end for bass management. Recently I bought a Trinnov. The Trinnov calibrator could not notice an output difference with his Earthworks microphones using test tones and pink noise. I could not notice a difference and trust me, I did try.
It turned out my concern which is basically your concern was unfounded using equipment. It is a dilemma and forward looking enthusiasts such as yourself rightfully have this concern with a speaker so revealing. You seem to love the speaker line like I do.
1. Take the free one with the stipulation you can purchase the second panel if you are able to notice a difference later on. I recommend you rotate the speakers so that the center of the curved panel hits you directly instead of the Martin Logan headlamp thing when doing this test. We tested nearfield, about 9.5 feet away.
2. Buy a panel to go with your free panel up front and end up with a spare for the future.

Thanks for your advice - but it's one of those situations where it is undoubtedly the panel. I out my ear up to each with pink noise and the sound is so much different from panel to panel it's really not even necessary to test it with an SPL meter, and as I am putting my ear up to the panel, it's not the room either.

That said, I will keep my current good panel as a spare, but I want the two panels to be matched as best as possible, otherwise, why did I buy such expensive speakers? Anyhow - thanks for your feedback.

 

[andrew.hendler]

Again, at the cost, this is a high-end, perfectionist product. Hoping you "may not" notice a "material" difference shouldn't be part of the equation.

High-end speakers require significant compromise to accommodate them. Not only the cost (of course) - but also the space required, setup, complexity of use, purchase of supporting equipment, etc.

I'd bet that people wouldn't tend to make those sort of compromises if near enough was good enough. A Samsung sound bar will give you "near enough".

Exactly this - and it is materially noticeable. I have a Pass Int 60 which doesn't have balance control, but it wouldn't work anyway as the sound is not a few decibels different - rather the frequency spectrum is different.

Moreover, I only had the speakers for 2.5 years; I'm going to do everything in my power to keep them perfect as long as possible.

I agree with everything you said.