Vantage: Quality and reliability - What have you experienced?

Hello everyone,

First a couple of points:

1. I love the sound of my Vantage/Descent i combination :music: , even with my 1980's electronics. Upgrades are certainly forthcoming.

2. My dealer AND Martin Logan have been GREAT! :rocker: I have absolutely no issues with the way both have handled the situation I am about to list.

I am now waiting for my THIRD pair of Vantages!

On the first pair, after about a week, when measuring the distance of the top of the panel to the back wall, I inadvertently touched the panel edge and noticed that the panel went out for split second. I then lightly grabbed the panel with both hands and gave it a VERY light twist, and sure enough, the entire panel stopped playing. ML replaced both speakers, saying it could be a short to the panel.

On the second pair, after about two weeks, one of the panels keeps "charging up" continuously, as long as the green light is on the back, even if if it's ONLY plugged into a wall socket, all by itself. Yes, I tried different wall sockets. It sounds like a bubble and pop corn making machine, and has gotten so loud I can no longer play any music through it. Not sure as to the exact explanation ML gave for this one.

Anyway, they say I am the only one in USA that has had a problem with the Vantages, and they are very sorry. Again, they have been great, but I am wasting hours, as is my dealer, unboxing and reboxing and redelivering these, for what will now be three times.

I think we all know and accept (begrudgingly) the low level woofer noises that never end as long as they are plugged in, which I do not believe to be ground loop problem, just a design flaw IMHO). So other than that:

Should I but a lottery ticket, or a third pair of Vantages?

Thanks!

MA

music again said:

Hello everyone,

First a couple of points:

1. I love the sound of my Vantage/Descent i combination :music: , even with my 1980's electronics. Upgrades are certainly forthcoming.

2. My dealer AND Martin Logan have been GREAT! :rocker: I have absolutely no issues with the way both have handled the situation I am about to list.

With that said . . . What kind of quality/reliability issues have you had with your Vantages?

I am now waiting for my THIRD pair of Vantages!

On the first pair, after about a week, when measuring the distance of the top of the panel to the back wall, I inadvertently touched the panel edge and noticed that the panel went out for split second. I then lightly grabbed the panel with both hands and gave it a VERY light twist, and sure enough, the entire panel stopped playing. ML replaced both speakers, saying it could be a short to the panel.

On the second pair, after about two weeks, one of the panels keeps "charging up" continuously, as long as the green light is on the back, even if if it's ONLY plugged into a wall socket, all by itself. Yes, I tried different wall sockets. Not sure as to the exact explanation ML gave for this one.

Anyway, they say I am the only one in USA that has had a problem with the Vantages, and they are very sorry. Again, they have been great, but I am wasting hours, as is my dealer, unboxing and reboxing and redelivering these, for will be three times.

I think we all know and accept (begrudgingly) the low level woofer noises that never end as long as they are plugged in, which I do not believe to be ground loop problem, just a design flaw IMHO). So other than that:

Should I but a lottery ticket, or a third pair of Vantages?

Thanks!

MA

Click to expand...

Get summits ;-p

Get Summits

eknuds01 said:

Get summits ;-p

Click to expand...

Great Suggestion, but . . . . + $6,000 prevents that solution . . . for now.

Since the design of the two is relatively similar, wouldn't the same panel issues exist, in theory?

Do Summits have double the low level woofer noise?

MA

I have never heard of these issues before with the vantages. This is truly amazing that back-to-back pairs have given you this much difficulty. ML speakers have a very good reputation for build quality as many forum members own ESL products that go back 15, 20, or more years (mine are around 5-6 years old at least).

I have Summits and have not experienced either of the issues you mention. I also have Ascents and I did experience low-level woofer noises with them, which I traced back to my Yamaha receiver. When I hooked up better electronics, the woofer noises went away. You could be experiencing the woofer noise issues because of problems in your older electronics or because of noise on your AC lines.

Do you have an AC line conditioner in your system? Do you experience similar noises coming from your Descent? Have you tried using a "cheater" plug to confirm whether or not it is a ground loop issue? Have you tried hooking up a higher quality preamp and amp to determine if the issue is caused by your electronics? (Perhaps you could get a loaner from your dealer for this purpose.) Just some things to consider.

Sorry to hear about your problems with the Vantage panels. I do believe that this is not the norm. I expect you will be happy with your next pair. Good luck with it and let us know how it goes.

I'd go with the Vantages again. There's an outside possibility that something in your power environment is causing the problem. Let the third pair try and confirm that. Also, simply upgrading to Summits wouldn't be enough, as it sounds like your other equipment would have to be upgraded, too. So it wouldn't just be a $6000+ upgrade, it would probably be closer to $10000+. Yikes!

MA, Sorry to hear about your troubles. I have been a really long time fan of Martin Logans and I truly enjoy my Vantages. I say give them a third try, they are marvelous. I am not surprised that the company is taking care of you.
Good luck and I hope you get to enjoy.

Lee

music again said:

Hello everyone,


On the second pair, after about two weeks, one of the panels keeps "charging up" continuously, as long as the green light is on the back, even if if it's ONLY plugged into a wall socket, all by itself. Yes, I tried different wall sockets. It sounds like a bubble and pop corn making machine, and has gotten so loud I can no longer play any music through it. Not sure as to the exact explanation ML gave for this one.

MA

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I'm hearing a crackling sound(very low) from my Aeon I's. I though it was the beer at first, but it was there. I was trying a new dac and power cords in my system when I heard it. I put the original power cords back on the amps and it was still there but very low. I didn't notice it last night, but now I'm worried.
Is that a sign of impending panel failure?

GregLett said:

I'm hearing a crackling sound(very low) from my Aeon I's. I though it was the beer at first, but it was there. I was trying a new dac and power cords in my system when I heard it. I put the original power cords back on the amps and it was still there but very low. I didn't notice it last night, but now I'm worried.
Is that a sign of impending panel failure?

Click to expand...

Probably more likely a sign that you have some dust on your panels. Try the vacuuming techniques described in previous threads and see if that doesn't fix the crackling.

Rich said:

Probably more likely a sign that you have some dust on your panels. Try the vacuuming techniques described in previous threads and see if that doesn't fix the crackling.

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OK. I did vacume, maybe that's why it stopped

Thanks.

Dust

Rich said:

Probably more likely a sign that you have some dust on your panels. Try the vacuuming techniques described in previous threads and see if that doesn't fix the crackling.

Click to expand...

Rich,

I did follow that thread, and although I am not an expert by any means, I doubt this is a dust problem. It was wierd. One speaker (the good one) barely made a noise when powered up, but the one that went bad, would sparkle/crackle upon start up for about 30 seconds. That time kept getting increasingly longer, until now it's VERY loud and stays on as long as the green light is on. I only had the speakers for about 2 weeks and the room is pretty clean.

Would the noise caused by dust continue as long as the green light is on, but stop once the yellow light comes on?

JM

Actually, my response about dust was specifically targeted to Greglet's inquiry.

Musicagain, regarding your issue, I just don't know. Sounds like more than a dust problem. Dust usually accumulates on the panels over a period of time, not immediately. And the crackling from dust usually isn't really loud, just some low pops and crackles and it doesn't go away until you clean the panels. Your issue sounds more like some sort of short in the electronics. Good luck with your next pair.

It ain't dust

Hi Joe,

My sincere regrets for what you are going through. Tis a bummer because like other people have said, ML quality control has been very good to date.

I've had four models of ML speakers over the last 20 some years and I never started vacuuming my Summit panels until a couple of months ago. My other ML's (CLS2a's, Aerius, and SL3's) were never vacuumed and never exhibited this type of problem. I owned each model for roughly six years per model.

I am reasonably confident (99.999%) that something else is way wrong. Given your history, I think it is more than reasonable to request that ML sell you the Summits as their discount rate, whatever that may be and then we will see how committed they are to customer satisfaction. I would hope that they would seriously consider this option. Just a thought.

GG

So if you swap positions with the two speakers (left to right) does the problem move with the speaker? I had the Vantages a couple of months before getting the Summits and in that brief period they were flawless. The Summits had some issues though, which the vendor and Martin Logan resolved. From my limited perspective these speakers require a commitment (read investment) by the owner to fully enjoy their potential. Like most everything there is a learning curve.(for me anyway)

As for as M/L's commitment to customer satisfaction. I don't think a speaker would leave the factory that exhibits the anomalies you are experiencing. So with that they don't own you anything more than what you paid for. This should be to deliver post haste without excuses or delay a proper working pair of speakers if the problem is with the speakers.
Good Luck

Definitely not dust - should get

Rich said:

Actually, my response about dust was specifically targeted to Greglet's inquiry.

Musicagain, regarding your issue, I just don't know. Sounds like more than a dust problem. Dust usually accumulates on the panels over a period of time, not immediately. And the crackling from dust usually isn't really loud, just some low pops and crackles and it doesn't go away until you clean the panels. Your issue sounds more like some sort of short in the electronics. Good luck with your next pair.

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I'm voting for an electronics issue. It is very loud and consitent. Sounds like a breathing machine!

Even so, I think I'm going to start researching "power-line" equipment. My AC is not the best even though my house is only 13 years old.The circuit the system is plugged into has had problems in the past when a lot is plugged in, say the Christmas tree. I'm going to start a new post regarding power-line products, since I'm clueless there too.

So much to learn, so little free time . . . .

I have to admit that I had a problem when I first took delivery of my Vantages. They developed a buzzing sound at higher listening levels which was tracked down by the dealer to a cracked plasticcover on the ESL panel itself. This was replaced and no further problems.

When I upgraded to Summits, the auto sensor wouldn't work. The dealer eventually tracked this problem down to a mismatch between my then digital power amplifier and the Summits ICE digital amplifiers. For some reason they cancelled each other out! This problem was solved by the dealer supplying Summit power cables with the earth pin removed (!). After this problem was fixed, I have had no issues whatsoever. I have since sold that power amplifer for something a lot better...

OP,

Sorry about your experience with the Vantages. I had two pairs and both worked perfectly fine.... and my Summits are going strong (knock on wood... knock knock knock).

In your case, I would try to audition whichever new pair you get at the dealer, that way if you notice any oddity, you don't have to bring it home, bring it back type of deal.

That's what I did each time I bought a pair of speakers. Nothing's worse than taking home a pair of busted ones AND having to go through the hassle of calling the dealer, bringing it back, waiting for a new pair.

Just my experience.

Good luck with your future Logans... given their history of reliability and great customer service, you should be OK.

Joey

I have had Vantage speakers since about 6 months after they came out. No problems here.

I do have the power on a good conditoner and I use a Bryston 4 SST amp.

Joel

Fortunately I have had zero issues with my Vantages since I bought them last December. I live in an apartment where voltage varies between 116V and 125V, and toroidal transformers have a tendency to hum - IOW, not the cleanest AC. The Vantages do run off Belkin PF 60s; however I do not believe that their power conditioning makes a significant difference.

Another decision tomorrow . . .

Gordon Gray said:

Hi Joe,

My sincere regrets for what you are going through. Tis a bummer because like other people have said, ML quality control has been very good to date.

I am reasonably confident (99.999%) that something else is way wrong. Given your history, I think it is more than reasonable to request that ML sell you the Summits as their discount rate, whatever that may be and then we will see how committed they are to customer satisfaction. I would hope that they would seriously consider this option. Just a thought.

GG

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Gordon,

I played the speakers for my family who was over for a birthday party. I plugged in the "bad" Vantage hoping to demo the system on a few songs, and the noise was incredible, like a machine gun that never stopped! I quickly unplugged it. I know I mentioned it before, but this noise occurs even when it's plugged in all by itself. There is definitely a problem here.

Now my wife, after two pair of Vantages, and may I add one who does not like the Descent i taking up most of the corner of the room, or cares less about watching moves for the "future" HT I keep talking about . . . . says to me, "We like music, right? We really don't care about movies, right? All this extra home theater stuff is going to cost a lot of money right? . . . . Why don't you just return all of this and get the Summits?" Let's not start that again!

If they would still let me go that route, I would:

1. Give up the Vantages and the Descent i
2. Purchase the Summits (I estimate $2,500 additional cost).
3. Skip the HT idea altogether.
4. Install a dedicated circuit and recepticles prior to the new speakers arriving.
5. Purchase some form of power conditioner/surge protector/regulator/UPS (I still have a lot to learn and looking at other threads and the one I recently started).
6. Save my pennies/dollars for a new power amp and preamp. I suspect I should go with the preamp first as the one I have now (Hafler DH-110) was a kit and is VERY outdated and even though I have taken great care of it over the years, is definitely showing mechanical age!

I'll let everyone know what happens!

Thanks to Gordon, and EVERYONE else who has respnded to my posts. I read evry one of them and take notes!