Vantage Bass Boom in small room, options?

[Brandon Hartwick]

@malcesine would you mind sharing some photos of your current speaker setup? We might be able to help you out better with some pics

 

[Leporello]

Any company that sells "audiophile" network switches and routers, you've got to ask some questions.

Layer 2 switches don't even understand IP.

As I've said before - if there was some sort of problem with data transmission apparatus that only small, low budget, sparsely resourced ** audiophile companies have discovered (let alone devise, engineer and implement an acceptable solution), then we'd have much bigger problems in this world than bad sound quality.

If they can show me objective evidence as to what these products are changing (either technically, or the resulting soundwave that is produced in the listening room) then I'll listen and critically assess. My offer has been open for a while now.

As for now - all they can offer me is statements like "condition the entire unit with harmonics of the Earth’s Schuman Resonance."

mmmmm - okay then.

** Compared to multinationals like HP, Allied Telesys, ABB, Cisco, Alcatel, Huawei, et al.

One of my pet peeves is people who drop terms like "Schumann resonance" who obviously don't know the first thing about physics. Also, it's two n's, like the nineteenth century composer, not the twentieth century one.

 

[ttocs]

@malcesine since you now know the most problematic frequency, you can reduce it using DSP and/or PEQ.

Also, consider this simple test without a sub, but needs a preamp with a crossover setting. I'm not clear on what you're using as a preamp, but if it has crossover settings, then set it at its highest setting and lower it while listening. See how low you can go and get good sound, albeit with little bass probably, but this is to find out how low the Vantages can go before the boomy bass becomes noticeable.

Then run the same audio signal to a sub and do the opposite. Set its crossover at its lowest setting and raise it while listening to it as the Vantages and see it any amount of subwoofer will work in your room.

Next test would be to play with sub settings so it avoids the boomy frequency but also has the lowest frequencies reduced in output.

Are you familiar with REW?

 

[john smith]

Looking for some expertise and experience on this.
Loving the Vantages but struggling to tame the bass in my small, rectangular and not ideal listening room.
It's 4.5m long by 2.2m wide, vantages at narrow end and around 0.8m from rear wall, toed in slightly (I've established this as best location having tried every possible combination).

Problem is the bass is boomy (as it is with other floorstanding speakers, not just the vantages) especially around 63Hz.
When I dial in my usual 1 or 2 SVS sealed subs and only feed 80hz and above to the Vantages it improves significantly (no surprise) but integration isn't wonderful and bass lacks the punch of the Vantages.

Room correction solves bass boom problem but destroys everything else (ie Dirac).

The 35Hz adjustment potentiometer literally does nothing, again not surprising as issue seems to be at higher frequency.

So last resort feels like a cleaner DSP that doesn't kill everything else?
or perhaps full length bass traps in the corners behind the vantages, combined with plugging the vantage rear port.
I can't do much more than that room wise unfortunately.

Or is simply that the Vantages are never going to work.in.a room that size?

Thoughts, experience from other Vantage/Summit owners?

 

[john smith]

Looking for some expertise and experience on this.
Loving the Vantages but struggling to tame the bass in my small, rectangular and not ideal listening room.
It's 4.5m long by 2.2m wide, vantages at narrow end and around 0.8m from rear wall, toed in slightly (I've established this as best location having tried every possible combination).

Problem is the bass is boomy (as it is with other floorstanding speakers, not just the vantages) especially around 63Hz.
When I dial in my usual 1 or 2 SVS sealed subs and only feed 80hz and above to the Vantages it improves significantly (no surprise) but integration isn't wonderful and bass lacks the punch of the Vantages.

Room correction solves bass boom problem but destroys everything else (ie Dirac).

The 35Hz adjustment potentiometer literally does nothing, again not surprising as issue seems to be at higher frequency.

So last resort feels like a cleaner DSP that doesn't kill everything else?
or perhaps full length bass traps in the corners behind the vantages, combined with plugging the vantage rear port.
I can't do much more than that room wise unfortunately.

Or is simply that the Vantages are never going to work.in.a room that size?

Thoughts, experience from other Vantage/Summit owners?

Bass blockers in the corners of the room.
The bass is coupling to your walls.
Keep speakers away from walls (back and sides.

 

[Leporello]

Here's what I suggest: first, I assume the Vantage is bi-wirable. I think most ML hybrids are, but there doesn't seem to be a manual in the product museum. Get yourself a MiniDSP box such as this:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex

You'll also need another power amplifier for the woofer. Drive the 'stat panel through its high pass crossover, for pristine, analog-only DSP sound (no sound killing). Use the MiniDSP to crossover between the woofer and sub, and to EQ the bass only. You can tune the PEQ parameters by ear (exercise in frustration, not recommended), buy a Dirac license for the MiniDSP or tune it using free Room Eq Wizard (REW) software. Don't worry for now about cascading the passive LP filter in the woofer with the DSP filters, it will come out in the tuning. If that works out for you, you may consider bypassing the LP crossover in the speaker, for tighter control of the woofer by the amp, and re-tuning. You'll have to figure out for yourself how to do that, or get help from the knowledgeable people here.

Without any experience listening to your system in your room, regardless of what people are saying about abandon all hope in a room that size, I think you could achieve passable results that way. In particular, dealing with that 63 hz. peak should be straightforward. Much easier than dealing with a dip. Whether you'll get a purist-pleasing minimum phase filter is questionable but, as I say, probably listenable. Also, window-rattling 18 hz. bass is almost certainly not achievable regardless of what your sub can in theory do.

I confess I have zero experience with MiniDSP. But others on this forum speak highly of it. It is on my short list to buy, to replace my Velodyne SMS-1 equalizer that died some time ago. It was DSP, but crude compared to what's available now. REW does output PEQ parameters for the SMS-1, which worked considerably better than running the SMS in auto-setup. So that's the sum total of my experience with trying to tame the bass in a room.

 

[R.I.P]

Keep each Vantage feet on a quarter feet high block. Will help to reduce low frequencies. May or may not be the solution to the booming bass problem. Hope the above statement is accurate.

In my limited experience with Classic ELS 9 when speaker location is not 100% optimal there is audible bass boom.

If you have not tried placing ML’s according to the formula given i recommend you try the formula.The formula will give you a good starting location. The further your room is from symmetrical shape the greater the trial and error required to find precise location and greater the distance of 100% optimal actual location from formula derived optimal position.

Roberto offered advice regarding rake or back tilt of ELS 9. Specific for ELS 9 and may or may not work for Vantage. Loosen both rear spikes 2 full turns for both loudspeakers.

 

[malcesine]

Thanks so much everyone, really appreciate it.
I have tried some of the ideas but not others, and certainly not in combination with each other.
Headed into the man cave now to experiment with your ideas and what I can adjust today (speakers, subwoofers and Dirac)
Will report back....

 

[malcesine]

update....
Dirac plus a subwoofer or 2 helped a lot with taming bass, pretty much eliminated the bass issues - however the negative impact on everything else from Dirac was too large of a compromise.
In the end, I reluctantly sold the Vantages, admitting failure in my small / challenging room, much as I loved other aspects of the Vantages the woofer wasn't going to work out.

Quad ESL63 back in place with (ironically) an Martin Logan Depth i subwoofer and and Arendal 2nd sub, no Dirac. The depth is a stunning piece of kit,
Everything sounding great.
Just that final CLS IIZ 20th anniversary itch to scratch ;->