Upgrade of AC Power Cables

[GW1800]

There are several on this forum that totally push back that power, interconnects and grounding are some how not important or more importantly sonically insignificant. You need to find out for yourself to flip you to one side or another but once you do an honest compare I'm confident that you will conclude that yes that 2M power from the wall duplex, interconnects and good grounding using Entreq or the new QKore Nordost solution are very audible. Do not let the shout from the the group that never experimented with other cables cloud your judgement. Find a dealer that you can get demo cables from and find out for yourself.

 

[Gordon Gray]

What you have to do is get accustomed to what you are testing for some time, and then, do the change. Right there is where you will notice easier the change.

You nailed it my friend.

 

[Speedskater]

Let´s respect ourselves. If you don´t like power cords, don´t buy them. But don´t bother the ones who had spent some money and are very happy with the product.
Happy listening!

It's not about the people that have these cables. It's about encouraging others to waste money on these cables. If you have aftermarket cables fine, just don't write about how good they are.

 

[roberto]

Yes you are right!
But, please read this:

https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/
http://www.essentialsound.com/power-cable-technology.htm
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-powercords-make-a-difference-in-sound
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/e...r-cords-make-a-difference-in-a-system.132183/
http://www.hifivision.com/audio-vid...ake-difference-hi-fi-systems-performance.html
https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/power-cables
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ifference-other-than-potentially-reduce-noise

Here are some guys, like you and me that are talking about it, they are not sellers of power cables...just talking if the power cable made a difference in sound quality and why it did.
I wish to you a very happy listening!

Please tell us your sound system...

 

[Gordon Gray]

It's not about the people that have these cables. It's about encouraging others to waste money on these cables. If you have aftermarket cables fine, just don't write about how good they are.

Roberto tries to be nice and polite and you respond in a very aggressive / condescending manner. Why can't you accept the simple fact that there are divergent viewpoints / perspectives on this issue?

Why do you have to be so disrespectful in your response?

He's providing information only and only you can decide wether to try or not.

No-one is holding a gun to your head.

PS: You tell people to not write about something because they have a different opinion than yours. Do you realize how silly and indefensible that sounds given this is an open, public forum? Who made you King and the final arbiter of truth on this or any other matter?

 

[Speedskater]

I'm not writing about opinion. I'm writing about good engineering practice. If they have supportable viewpoints, fine.
It's long past time for some audiophiles to face reality.

* * * *
Roberto, do any of the above links have real supportable demonstrations or tests?

My system or anybody else's system has little to do with good engineering practice.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Very predictable response.

And no, your last sentence is false. All other things being equal, a more transparent system is clearly able to present more information allowing the listener to have more informed opinions.

Are you really saying the a "Rat Shack" basic system is as transparent as what you own?

 

[roberto]

I'm not writing about opinion. I'm writing about good engineering practice. If they have supportable viewpoints, fine.
It's long past time for some audiophiles to face reality.

* * * *
Roberto, do any of the above links have real supportable demonstrations or tests?

My system or anybody else's system has little to do with good engineering practice.

All I can say is that my ears are the final judges. Do you think that what's in the books and engineering are the final statement? Do you believe in research? When I was at College, studying electronics by the way, I was told that the atom was indivisible. You know that this statement is false on these days. Atom means indivisible. What I am trying to say, is that the engineers are in a continuos research...and had found that the power supply of our all electronics is contaminated by a lot of unwanted dirt. This dirt affects the sound quality in a bad way, in the inner detail. If your system is not capable to resolve this affect, that could be the reason why you are not listening the improvement with a good power cord. Just guessing. I don't believe that there are so many audiophiles that are wrong regarding the power cables. Have you try a good power cord in your system? The first thing that you will notice is an improvement in the bass. Not boomy bass, just quality. Deeper notes, and more less fatigue. The second thing that you will notice easy is the image. The musicians just snaps like having them playing for you there, in your own room. The third thing that you will notice is the size of the instruments. A piano having the right size vs a violin. This is breath taking. When you listen to the music, is one thing. We like to listen the musicians playing for us there. You can understand the left hand vs the right hand at the piano player easy. Some people might think this is not important, other believe that this is the right way to listen to the musicians. You can call the name of the musicians while they are playing...you get easy their way to play. Just open your mind and ears for a new way of listening experience. Looks like cheese, smells like cheese, but it is bread.

Happy listening.

 

[Pneumonic]

Why the need for different power cords?

• Some power cords are poorly constructed (poorly terminated and/or too low a gauge size for required application) and can be improved upon.
• The power supplies of some audio devices are inadequately designed and, therefore, don’t do the job of properly supplying clean power to the electronic ccts.
• The deceitful marketing practices of audio companies who take advantage of unsuspecting audiophiles who are influenced by these practices.
• Psychological biases.
• Some combo of the above 4.

Instead of shelling out big bucks for a power cord why not buy an isolation transformer. It’ll condition your lines, eliminate all EMI/RFI noise, ground loops and act as a surge suppressor.

 

[rpokuls]

It is my understanding that power cables do not carry any audio signal. How do they affect the sound at all?

I realize that some RF noise may be picked up by the power cable, but this will be filtered out by the power supply. The only
thing the power supply does is supply DC for the electronics.

I've similar arguments for interconnects and speaker cables, but these at least are in the audio signal chain.

 

[amey01]

It is my understanding that power cables do not carry any audio signal. How do they affect the sound at all?

I realize that some RF noise may be picked up by the power cable, but this will be filtered out by the power supply. The only
thing the power supply does is supply DC for the electronics.

I've similar arguments for interconnects and speaker cables, but these at least are in the audio signal chain.

If it's "not in the signal chain and can't affect sound quality", try cutting it with a pair of pliers then.

Good power is essential for good audio. The ground reference is the most obvious example (eg. if you have a ground loop).

Now ....... this is an entirely separate argument from whether you think a metre of fancily-braided copper between your mains supply and the skinny cheap wire on the side of the IEC inlet that you can't see....... well yeah.

 

[rpokuls]

I found an interesting article on power cables from a while back. It describes ABX testing done on Nordost Valhalla cables:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

 

[Tgun5]

I'm actually surprised to see so many posts that disregard the positive audible effects of good power cables. I also snubbed the idea 20 years ago when they started to show up as audio accessories. After listening to so many different power cord brands on my equipment as well as making some of my own, there is little doubt as to the validity of their positive effects on the system. Makes no sense, I know. Bottom line is that with the Logan woofers/amps crossed over at 300 cycles or so, the cord you choose only has to be good in the lower frequencies. Less critical than the things we choose full range cords for - my choice was made for tight, accurate bottom end with no bloom. A lot of low price power cords perform well in this area. You can pick up Supra Lorad 2.5 power cable from Madisound for $5/ft (a very fine cable) and throw some Wattgate ends on for another $30. If you can't hear the difference, I'd be surprised. If you do, It will be the best $50 you ever spent on audio.

 

[amey01]

I'm actually surprised to see so many posts that disregard the positive audible effects of good power cables. I also snubbed the idea 20 years ago when they started to show up as audio accessories. After listening to so many different power cord brands on my equipment as well as making some of my own, there is little doubt as to the validity of their positive effects on the system. Makes no sense, I know. Bottom line is that with the Logan woofers/amps crossed over at 300 cycles or so, the cord you choose only has to be good in the lower frequencies. Less critical than the things we choose full range cords for - my choice was made for tight, accurate bottom end with no bloom. A lot of low price power cords perform well in this area. You can pick up Supra Lorad 2.5 power cable from Madisound for $5/ft (a very fine cable) and throw some Wattgate ends on for another $30. If you can't hear the difference, I'd be surprised. If you do, It will be the best $50 you ever spent on audio.

Trying to be completely unbiased, it is a little hard to follow your post:

You are surprised to see posts that disregard power cables; but
You also held the same opinion; and
After listening you are convinced about positive effects; but
You agree it makes no sense; but then.....
You try to get pseudo-scientific and throw reason behind it (after explicitly saying it makes no sense) by suggesting it is only applicable below 300 Hz.

So, I'm not really sure what to make of your post. ??

 

[Tgun5]

My wife says this all the time........I know what I'm thinking but I'm not conveying it properly. So.....

(1) I said I'm surprised because this is a community of people who own "higher end" equipment and as a general rule, are open to ideas and tweeks to improve their sound. The disregard I'm talking about are the posts that discount any possibility of an improvement yet they haven't tried it themselves.
(2) Yes, 15 years ago, before trying aftermarket power cables, I thought that it didn't make sense. After all, how could a power cord improve the sound when the romex/wire in the wall is of low quality. Common sense says that you are limited by the weak link in the chain.
(3) Because I am open to new ideas I tried numerous cords and found them to improve the sound quality. Do I think it makes total sense? Not necessarily, again based on the weak link in the chain - the wall wiring.
(4) Yes, if you are powering a amplifier that has a crossover set at 300 hz the only frequencies that would be audible are 300 - down and possibly an octave and a half up. Even if the cord is enhancing the entire frequency range, you will only hear improvement in that frequency range in this case.

So do power cords make a difference? To my hearing, absolutely. I'll be the first to admit that I don't understand the science behind everything but that doesn't stop me from trying something new. So - if you are completely unbiased as you say....try some power cords and see if you get an improvement. If you don't hear a difference I'll never accuse you of not being able to hear as well as me. LOL

 

[amey01]

My wife says this all the time

Me too.

sound when the romex/wire in the wall is of low quality.

It's not just the wire in the wall. If you want a really sobering sight, open up your amplifier or speakers and have a look at the internal wiring they use. Chances are, it'll be a skinny runt of a thing! Funny what sort of materials even high-end companies use when the customer can't see it.

only frequencies that would be audible are 300 - down and possibly an octave and a half up.

So do you only hear an improvement below 300Hz?

Funny, because some very members here in our midst say that connecting lavish power cables to even unpowered MLs results in a supposedly audible difference.

If you don't hear a difference I'll never accuse you of not being able to hear as well as me. LOL

I haven't tried, I admit.

Oh, and for the record ('cos you're new here) - I'll never say you're crazy for hearing a difference either..........I just believe there are better things to expend your energy on.

 

[Pneumonic]

Presuming a properly functioning power cord, of sufficient gauge size to not current starve the device it is connected to, this all gets back to poor power supply design.

If a power cord’s filtering effect measurably improves performance specs of an audio device then that devices designer is at fault for he failed to meet power supply spec for the optimization of his audio circuit.

Of course, designers cut corners all of the time to meet minimum spec but, we are talking audiophile moniker objectives here. In a hobby where the rationalization for added gear cost is almost always tied to improved power supply performance, if a simple power cord is doing something that the power supply is supposed to be doing, then there’s something egregiously wrong with the design of the device’s power supply.

Since any improvement in sound quality that is caused by a power cord change can be surpassed by improving the power supply design I submit that the proper solution is to improve to a device with a better performing power supply unit.

 

[todcp]

Since any improvement in sound quality that is caused by a power cord change can be surpassed by improving the power supply design I submit that the proper solution is to improve to a device with a better performing power supply unit.

Agree times ten from my recent experience. Our electrostatics are extremely revealing and in my quest for music to come out of a black hole I acquired an LKV Line One Preamp and LKV 2-SB Phono Amp a year ago. The power supply on both is external, huge and exceptional design. The electrical components in these highly regarded units are of very high quality and design but the amazing power supply is a very significant contributor to the clean, clear sound and the darkness the music comes out of.
Currently paired with a fully restored Sunfire 300x2. New power supply as well with this restoration.

 

[Bernard]

Presuming a properly functioning power cord, of sufficient gauge size to not current starve the device it is connected to, this all gets back to poor power supply design.

If a power cord’s filtering effect measurably improves performance specs of an audio device then that devices designer is at fault for he failed to meet power supply spec for the optimization of his audio circuit.

Of course, designers cut corners all of the time to meet minimum spec but, we are talking audiophile moniker objectives here. In a hobby where the rationalization for added gear cost is almost always tied to improved power supply performance, if a simple power cord is doing something that the power supply is supposed to be doing, then there’s something egregiously wrong with the design of the device’s power supply.

Since any improvement in sound quality that is caused by a power cord change can be surpassed by improving the power supply design I submit that the proper solution is to improve to a device with a better performing power supply unit.

Don't forget that most components are designed to a specific price point, which impacts the design of the power supply, i.e. how well it performs. So, a power conditioner could well improve the component (it does in my modest setup). I can't make such a statement about high end power cables as I have no experience with them; but I certainly will not say that they make no difference without doing any listening.

I would love to see a report of the results of using a fancy cable or conditioner with a cost-no-object preamp such as the ARC Reference 10. I wish I could listen for myself, but lack the finances.

 

[Tgun5]

Just to be clear, when referring to 300 hz, I'm specifically talking about the power cord to the amp/woofer on the Montis and similar models. I realize that the panel gets charged with this cord as well, but I haven't experienced improvements in the mid to top end changing the speaker power cord. Not saying it isn't possible, just not to the extent of power cords on amps/preamps etc.