Tubes - where in the chain is best?

[sleepysurf]

Does anyone know of some Brands/Models that default to the HTB on when powered off? Sorry for getting off topic here.

A quick Google search turns up these Cary models. I believe Joey has/had one of these.

In the SLP-98L (that's units without phono), you simply take the line outs from your home theater processor or receiver and plug them into the Phono input of the preamp (it's just labelled "phono" but is really wired for pass-thru). When you turn the preamp off, it kicks it into pass-thru mode. So all you do to watch movies is turn off the SLP-98, turn on your processor, and you're good to go!

In the SLP-98P (units with phono), one pair of output taps is converted into the pass-thru circuit. Cary labels the RCA jacks as "input" and you simply take the line outs from your processor and plug them into that pair of jacks. Then, same as on the 98L, when you want to watch a movie, just turn off the SLP-98 and it kicks over to pass-thru mode.

 

[Pcar928fan]

(it's just labelled "phono" but is really wired for pass-thru). When you turn the preamp off, it kicks it into pass-thru mode. So all you do to watch movies is turn off the SLP-98, turn on your processor, and you're good to go!

In the SLP-98P (units with phono), one pair of output taps is converted into the pass-thru circuit. Cary labels the RCA jacks as "input" and you simply take the line outs from your processor and plug them into that pair of jacks. Then, same as on the 98L, when you want to watch a movie, just turn off the SLP-98 and it kicks over to pass-thru mode.

What if you actually HAVE A TT and want to use the Phono input for that?! Are you hosed? I guess maybe you could use a different input for the TT, since virtually anyone who would be playing in that market is going to have a TT Pre amp that is NOT part of the Pre-amp...thus it would not matter which input into the Pre that took up???

 

[Spike]

What if you actually HAVE A TT and want to use the Phono input for that?! Are you hosed? I guess maybe you could use a different input for the TT, since virtually anyone who would be playing in that market is going to have a TT Pre amp that is NOT part of the Pre-amp...thus it would not matter which input into the Pre that took up???

Pcar,
I think you're confused with the nomenclature of the Cary models so I'll try to clarify that a bit...

In the SLP-98L (that's units without phono), you simply take the line outs from your home theater processor or receiver and plug them into the Phono input of the preamp (it's just labelled "phono" but is really wired for pass-thru).

In this linestage unit (without built-in phono), the phono input is used for HT bypass. To answer your question directly, anyone who has this unit will NEED an outboard phono-stage anyways.

In the SLP-98P (units with phono), one pair of output taps is converted into the pass-thru circuit. Cary labels the RCA jacks as "input" and you simply take the line outs from your processor and plug them into that pair of jacks.

For this unit which comes with built-in phono-stage, the "default" configuration is to use 1 pair of OUTPUT taps for HT bypass. If you really need to have 2 pairs of RCA outputs (like I do), you could request Cary to wire the HT bypass to one of the 4 inputs.

Hope this helps :cheers:

 

[tonepub]

But make no mistake, amps and speakers are where it's at, and the notion that it's possible to warm up a SS amp by placing a clean, quiet tube preamp ahead of it is pure, unadulterated bullpucky, in my ever-so-humble opinion :bowdown:

Sorry, but I have to side with the tube preamp guys. However, it really depends on the final sound YOU are after. I have a pair of MC 275's and they don't do a thing for me on the Summits, though I know that it is a popular combination out here. That being said, I love my MC 275 with my Tetra 506 customs! (as well as other speakers...)

Though back in the day, I used an ARC D-79 with my Aerius speakers and it was fantastic.

What's important is that it's the character that you enjoy the most.

The main reason I don't use a tube amplifier for my main reference system anymore is that because of my job reviewing, my system is on sometimes 12 hours a day and that gobbles up tubes a lot faster than the average person that might not listen that much in a week or even a month.

It's getting harder to get really good power tubes at a reasonable price as well, so that is a consideration too!

If you live anywhere near a good dealer, see if they will work with you and let you have a couple of home demos. I really feel that in the end, it's a case by case thing, with some combinations sounding better than others.

Again, keep in mind good tubes are getting harder and much more expensive to find... But the right setup will be magic, and I'm sure that's what you are after!

Good luck, and feel free to email me if I can lend a hand!

[email protected]

 

[Caerus]

My take is put them at the very beginning; at the source. At least that is the experiment I am going for. I plan on adding a tube CDP such as a Shanling or a Raysonic into my system. I also did not want a tubed amp or pre because my system is always on even just watching TV or HT. I did not want to replace tubes or have hot electricity eaters. But for two channel I will have one clean, simple system of a tubed CDP, one set of ICs and then a control amp (variable gain amp) directly to my Vantages. I also like my amp because it has sub pres to my Depth i and HT pass-thru is a blessing.

I know this is different than the main stream, but I like to try different things and I have never been normal any ways.

Brad

 

[David Matz]

Listen Yourself...Just because others like tubes does not mean you will

Here is a contrarian point of view - at least contrarian to most opinions on this site.

Listen to some quality solid state with good cables (balanced preferably). You may like it more than tubes. Your system will also sound the same every time you will turn it on. You will have a very quiet piece of equipment, as many tubes are noisy. You may also have less interactivity issues with other equipment. The sound will be very 3 dimensional.

Check out a great SS preamp such as Ayre (even at $3K) or a Levinson (more expensive), and connect it with excellent cables (Transparent for example). These preamps will get out of the way and you will forget about the equipment and its schematics. You will not be fiddling with tubes and playing engineer, but you will be listening to music, which is what it's all about.

Again, listen yourself. Everyone has an opinion. No one has heard every combination of every brand with every cable. Try things for yourself, have fun, and enjoy.

 

[eknuds01]

Here is a contrarian point of view - at least contrarian to most opinions on this site.

Listen to some quality solid state with good cables (balanced preferably). You may like it more than tubes. Your system will also sound the same every time you will turn it on. You will have a very quiet piece of equipment, as many tubes are noisy. You may also have less interactivity issues with other equipment. The sound will be very 3 dimensional.

Check out a great SS preamp such as Ayre (even at $3K) or a Levinson (more expensive), and connect it with excellent cables (Transparent for example). These preamps will get out of the way and you will forget about the equipment and its schematics. You will not be fiddling with tubes and playing engineer, but you will be listening to music, which is what it's all about.

Again, listen yourself. Everyone has an opinion. No one has heard every combination of every brand with every cable. Try things for yourself, have fun, and enjoy.

The last couple of posts bring up some valid issues. If finding good tubes are expensive and rare, one needs to be careful as the operating costs are gonn get steep!:devil:

 

[Craig]

It's true that some tubes are expensive and rare especially if you are seeking the very best. On the other hand there are many tubes that are very common, reasonably priced and long lasting. It depends on your equipment's tube requirement.

I wouldn't rule out trying tubed gear and a preamp or an integrated amp is not a bad place to start. In the end it comes down to your own preference and what flavor of sound you prefer. Amps that are self-biasing and soft-start features can help to extend tube life. One benefit of tubed gear is that the warm up time is very quick, about 15 minutes or so.

Tubes can bring more 3 dimensionality to the soundstage and often improve the midrange among other nice attributes. There can also be some comprimises but excellent gear can minimize some of the compromises. An all tube setup can sound wonderful but can be more challenging and expensive to achieive. A mix of tubes and SS works well more often than not but like everything else is system and personal preference dependent.

Give it a try.

 

[risabet]

The last couple of posts bring up some valid issues. If finding good tubes are expensive and rare, one needs to be careful as the operating costs are gonna get steep!:devil:

Modern tubes are neither hard to find nor are they prohibitively expensive within the rules of this hobby. Preamp tubes should last upwards of 5 years, maybe more (circuit dependent) and can cost very little to replace, $12.00 to $20.00 each in my system. Power output tubes will last 1.5 to 2 years (less if you tube roll a lot) and will cost $70 to $200.00 per matched quartet so on an amortized basis not too bad when one album can easily set you back $50.00 to $100.00 dollars or more.

If you are into NOS tubes (I am not) than cost can easily get ridiculous and all I said goes out the window.

Here is a contrarian point of view - at least contrarian to most opinions on this site.

Listen to some quality solid state with good cables (balanced preferably). You may like it more than tubes. Your system will also sound the same every time you will turn it on. You will have a very quiet piece of equipment, as many tubes are noisy. You may also have less interactivity issues with other equipment. The sound will be very 3 dimensional.

Check out a great SS preamp such as Ayre (even at $3K) or a Levinson (more expensive), and connect it with excellent cables (Transparent for example). These preamps will get out of the way and you will forget about the equipment and its schematics. You will not be fiddling with tubes and playing engineer, but you will be listening to music, which is what it's all about.

Again, listen yourself. Everyone has an opinion. No one has heard every combination of every brand with every cable. Try things for yourself, have fun, and enjoy.

My system, all tubes, sounds the same every time I turn it on. Yes there is some maintenance involved, rebiasing and such but these are minor issues in this hobby IMO.

A tube preamp doesn't require one to "fiddle" with tubes but does allow one to do so if they wish. To my way of thinking this is a plus, not a minus, as one can tailor the sound to their taste for little in the way of time and money. Try doing that with SS!:music:

 

[tonepub]

David brings up a very valid point indeed. The line between tube and ss sound keeps getting closer all the time, so you may very well be completely
happy with solid state. As I now have my main system down to only 4 tubes, I won't call you a bad guy or any "less of an audiophile" for that at all!

Yes, the current tubes are fairly reasonably priced, but the good NOS tubes are quite a bit of money, and more often than not they not only sound better than the chinese and russian tubes, they usually (especially with preamp tubes) last a lot longer.

So, you pick your poison and go from there!

Either way enjoy the journey. Who knows what will totally grab you?

The good news is that the ML speakers are revealing enough, it will be easy for you to tell the diff!

 

[music again]

Biasing

My system, all tubes, sounds the same every time I turn it on. Yes there is some maintenance involved, rebiasing and such but these are minor issues in this hobby IMO.
---------------------
This is a great feedback!

From the newbie . . . I have seen "bias" mentioned here and in the tube literature. What is it, how do you know you have to "rebias" and how is it done? I think I saw on the Cary or BAT sites, that some of their equipment is "auto biasing", which I'm assumining means you don't have to know what you're doing, as it's self correcting.

Lastly, I see the "sixpack" power amps that seem to reasonably priced at $2,500 a pair by a division of Cary. That could be a place to start the listening to tubes. Any comments on these?

Thanks!

 

[risabet]

My system, all tubes, sounds the same every time I turn it on. Yes there is some maintenance involved, rebiasing and such but these are minor issues in this hobby IMO.
---------------------
This is a great feedback!

From the newbie . . . I have seen "bias" mentioned here and in the tube literature. What is it, how do you know you have to "rebias" and how is it done? I think I saw on the Cary or BAT sites, that some of their equipment is "auto biasing", which I'm assumining means you don't have to know what you're doing, as it's self correcting.

Lastly, I see the "sixpack" power amps that seem to reasonably priced at $2,500 a pair by a division of Cary. That could be a place to start the listening to tubes. Any comments on these?

Thanks!

Bias, a setting of the output devices, tubes or transpistors, is a measure of the current that the device will pass. Some amps are "autobias" which is when the amp has a circuit that monitors the bias point and keeps it at a constant level, you have to do nothing but buy matched sets of tubes. On my amps I have to use a DMM and measure the voltage at a bias point and adjust to a pot to get a specific value. I check every 6 months or so but some check more often.

The AES "sixpacs" http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue6/sixpac.htm have a great reputation and are undoubtedly very good amps as are amps from Rogue Audio http://www.rogueaudio.com and Tube Audio Design (which I own) http://www.tubeaudiodesign.com

 

[Spike]

Let me jump in here before this thread becomes one of "tubes vs solid-state" debate I think that it should be about good design and well-execution to get the best sound. There are excellent examples on both camps: Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Cary, Audio Note, Supratek, etc... on the tube side. Pass, Plinius, Classe', Krell, Mark Levinson, Lamm, DartZeel, etc... on the solid-state side. Let's not forget 47-Labs championing the (evil) op-amp design! Those are only a few off the top of my head (I'm sure I've missed quite a few more), they all have one thing in common: well thought-out, sound design and excellent execution on the production side. The common theme for these designs always start with beefy, rock-solid power-supply implementation for they firmly believe that the power-supply IS the start of the signal chain and the rest of the circuitry are there to shape the electrical signal into the desired audio signal to be passed on to the next stage. So let's not focus too much on figuring out where to put tubes in your signal chain, but rather where to put a good component to fit your musical taste. For example, I am a card-carrying... member of the toob-head club, but I'd gladly take a solid-state DartZeel or the op-amped 47-Labs any day without even a blink!

Now, regarding SixPacs, the best comment I can say is that I own them and they are fabulous. If you look at my system page, you'll even see pictures of them glowing in my system I've been quite vocal about these SixPacs here on this board and you can do a search for posts started by Spike, with SixPacs as keyword and you'll find lots of my previous posts on this subject.

Spike

 

[nsgarch]

no debate

Spike I agree there needn't be a debate about tubes vs. solid state. As you point out, there are excellent examples in both camps. I think the "debate" (really a discussion, I hope) should be between objectivists and subjectivists. All of what we hear in audio, in fact audio itself, results from applied physics. And it can be objectified to a very large degree.

This fact allows engineers/designers to make choices and create equipment that performs/sounds the way they want it to. Physics predicts that a tube amp will give more tube bang for the buck than a tube preamp. One may decide they like the sound of a tube preamp with a ss amp (a "solid state sound", no matter the budget) and that's perfectly fine, if that's one's subjective "musical taste", as you put it. But for that individual to imagine that the sound they hear is "tube sound" isn't science, it's whimsy.

 

[Pcar928fan]

All of what we hear in audio, in fact audio itself, results from applied physics. And it can be objectified to a very large degree.

But for that individual to imagine that the sound they hear is "tube sound" isn't science, it's whimsy.

Well, yes and no... You are correct sound can be quantitatively assessed, BUT what you HEAR is not always what you measure! I can tell you having gone through a recent hearing loss and thankfully return, that what I hear and what you hear will NOT sound the same. I have a really big hearing loss right at 4000 Hz...I don't hear that freq hardly at all. I am used to it and don't even notice (other than the ringing that I always hear at that freq), but if you don't have that same loss, what you hear might be completely different than what I hear depending on the music you are listening too.

So just because you can measure it does not mean you can hear it...that is why to one person a certain speaker might sound flat and uninvolving and to another it is the stuff dreams are made of! If all our ears worked the same and we all liked the same kind of music we would only need a few amp and speaker manufacturers. YMMV! :music:

 

[nsgarch]

Hearing can indeed vary, and more important, what people associate with what they hear can vary.

Regardless the state (health) of ones hearing, if the equipment aint doin' it, you ain't hearin' it.

And regardless one's auditory associations, if the equipment is doin' it wrong (adding harmonics, extending reverb times) then you're hearin' it wrong.

 

[Pcar928fan]

Hearing can indeed vary, and more important, what people associate with what they hear can vary.

Regardless the state (health) of ones hearing, if the equipment aint doin' it, you ain't hearin' it.

And regardless one's auditory associations, if the equipment is doin' it wrong (adding harmonics, extending reverb times) then you're hearin' it wrong.

Totally agree!

 

[JonFo]

While not exactly audio, these tubes are in my Home Theater and I love what they do.

No solid-state (digital) device can match them (yet).