Tubes or Solid State

[tom101davies]

hello all, wondering if anybody else is driving their speakers (Quest) with a tube setup, I was told by my Amp company tubes are not meant to drive electrostatic speakers, however, I've been driving them for the last 10 years this way until a tube burnt out. Is this true should I consider a Solid State System?

 

[twich54]

Tom, it 'depends' , lots of discussion on here regarding that. Do a search

 

[Lightloopy]

Sounds like you have your own answer right there. You were clearly satisfied with your capable tube amp for 10 yrs without the need to hunt for a replacement.
Certain tube amps are definitely not meant to be paired with stats but others are more than capable and handle a stat just fine.

Like Dave says, wealth of information and well respected opinions here.

 

[tom101davies]

Im driving them with Cary Ive been happy, but was not getting the punch I wanted. and then a tube burnt out, so I asked around and and got advise that I shouldn't be using that combination

 

[Lightloopy]

Which Cary model are you using? It may be adequate but not up to the task of really showing what your Quest are capable of. Also, how old are your Quest panels? If >20 yrs, they may be on their way out too.

 

[tom101davies]

Which Cary model are you using? It may be adequate but not up to the task of really showing what your Quest are capable of. Also, how old are your Quest panels? If >20 yrs, they may be on their way out too.

CAD120s MKii and SP03, and no don't say they are on their way out I love them

 

[Russr]

CAD120s MKii and SP03, and no don't say they are on their way out I love them

"On their way out" might mean the panels require washing (yeah, "washing"... there is a dedicated thread to it here, and mentioned all over the place), or, worst case, replacement.

Before considering that, do you know if your Quest panels have already been replaced? You can look up the serial numbers of the Speakers AND separately, the panels, and look them up for approximate manufacture dates. If you have original panels on them, then it IS quite likely they need replacement (~30 years = not bad!).

Not sure how much replacement panels are for your speakers.. probably between $2K and $3K, which will get them generating sweeter sounds than they did when new (after burn-in)! Not bad value assuming they last another 20 years!

 

[Lightloopy]

The Cary is a respectable amp and should be up to the task of driving your Quest. Age is definitely a factor to consider re your panels and your tubes. Worn out tubes can sound wooly and lifeless. If your tubes are 10 yrs old then it might be time to retube. Sounds like a great system and with a modest investment and TLC will return to it's original glory.
Good luck

 

[thomasmasi]

CAD120s MKii and SP03, and no don't say they are on their way out I love them

Hello Tom, I use to drive my prodigy, monolith's and odyssey's with cary slam 100 monoblocks and never had an issue. I did read that the original Cary cad 120s had an issue driving low impedance speakers but cary corrected that with the upgraded mkii. Honestly I believe that any martin logan speaker no matter what the model is can be an issue because they all dip down to around 1 ohm or less. Do your research on the web especially with other user experiences and on here as well.

 

[cabinum]

Tom, If you got 10 years out of a set of tubes, you're doing it right. If you like the sound, replace the tubes and keep on listening. I still rotate my Cary SixPacs throught the system periodically. They're still one of the best sounding amps for vocals at low levels, but tend to run out of gas with music that is more dynamic. Still have some 805RS that also sound fantastic, but they really want to pair with my horns. When the CLS's are hooked up, it's the Magtech that is in the system 90% of the time. I still haven't heard anything that compares with the Audio Research 600's that one of our esteemed members has with his CLX's here, but if a pair were in my budget, that would be my choice.

 

[R.I.P]

hello all, wondering if anybody else is driving their speakers (Quest) with a tube setup, I was told by my Amp company tubes are not meant to drive electrostatic speakers, however, I've been driving them for the last 10 years this way until a tube burnt out. Is this true should I consider a Solid State System?

Whether valve or solid state amplification what is best suited depends on the specific speaker. Not correct in this case to make a blanket generalization.

For instance, the original CLS sounds amazing with the middle of the line up Audio Research tube pre and power combination. However, CLS 2 compared to CLS, I have read, are suited to be driven by solid state amps rather than tube amplifiers, back in the early 90’s when they came out.

With Quest loudspeakers tubes or solid state is a matter of taste and user expertise required in operating and maintaining a tube amp. Much like expertise required in operating and maintaining a record player.

Boils down to a matter of subjective sonic taste and required expertise, provided both kinds of amplifiers in consideration can unleash in their own trademark style the full sonic potential of Quest loudspeakers and are not too divergent from each other from the value perspective.

 

[ML4Life]

This thread will surely be erratic in opinion. Many varying viewpoints. I run CLSii's with a McIntosh MC257 Power Amp. It's solid state. It does well, but the 250 watts are eaten up for breakfast.

Strongly considering a Magtech by Sanders.

However all these opinions aside, do what your ears prefer!

 

[jjqiv]

I run CLS I's with 50 watt, AES Sixpac tube monobloc's that have hefty transformers. They have plenty of headroom left, sound fantastic with a silky midrange, unearth detail fine details and exert a reach out and touch characteristic.

 

[JonFo]

I listen to people who design amps for ESLs when considering the pros and cons of tubes vs. solid state. Roger Sanders has designed tube amps for ESL, including a nifty direct drive (no step-up transformer) high-voltage tube amp. He links to an Audio Amatuer article he published in 1976 detailing that design in this current article on Tubes vs Solid State for ESL speakers: https://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors

Highly recommended reading for anyone interested in this topic.

I absolutely love my Sanders ESL amp driving the naked (no passive XO) Monolith panels. Here is a thread on this site where we discussed the Sanders amp: https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/sanders-esl-amplifiers.19365/

 

[Leporello]

This thread will surely be erratic in opinion. Many varying viewpoints. I run CLSii's with a McIntosh MC257 Power Amp. It's solid state. It does well, but the 250 watts are eaten up for breakfast.

Strongly considering a Magtech by Sanders.

However all these opinions aside, do what your ears prefer!

Is the MC257 a solid state amp with an autotransformer output? If so, you should use the lowest tap for the CLSII's. Their impedance is particularly brutal. I can't imagine 250 watts being insufficient, or that that's the real problem. Or else you like to listen at levels far higher than I do. I've driven mine with Adcom GFA555 and Cambridge Audio Azure 840 power amps, rated 200 and 280wpc into 8 ohms respectively and while they turned out to be less than optimal, the CLS II's certainly didn't "eat their power for breakfast". I'm now using Parasound JC-1 monoblocks, rated 400tpc into 8, 800wpc into 4 and 1600 wpc into 2. I no longer have to think about amplifier power or impedance. But I'm sure the Sanders, specifically designed for ESL's, will do fine.

 

[Leporello]

I listen to people who design amps for ESLs when considering the pros and cons of tubes vs. solid state. Roger Sanders has designed tube amps for ESL, including a nifty direct drive (no step-up transformer) high-voltage tube amp. He links to an Audio Amatuer article he published in 1976 detailing that design in this current article on Tubes vs Solid State for ESL speakers: https://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors

Highly recommended reading for anyone interested in this topic.

I absolutely love my Sanders ESL amp driving the naked (no passive XO) Monolith panels. Here is a thread on this site where we discussed the Sanders amp: https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/sanders-esl-amplifiers.19365/

Thanks for these interesting links, JonFo. The Sanders white paper very well explains the limitations of using tubes to drive speakers with abusively low and variable impedances like the CLS II with tubes. I followed his link to the Audio Amateur article describing his direct coupled ESL amp. I once read this article, and the Dave Hermeyer article it refers to. The problem I have with direct coupled ESL tube amps is they put dangerous voltages and current capacities on the stators. I know we all want the best possible sound, but is it really worth the risk of electrocution?

 

[JonFo]

The problem I have with direct coupled ESL tube amps is they put dangerous voltages and current capacities on the stators. I know we all want the best possible sound, but is it really worth the risk of electrocution?

Since the current setup uses a step-up transformer to boost the voltages, don't we already have very high voltages on the stators?
We see this when a stator seal cracks or peels away and arcs to the diaphragm.

The main difference vs direct drive is the risk of having that high voltage in the cables between the amp and the speaker; that's where the real problem lies.
I dealt with this conundrum in my design for the Monoray line by having a custom Kevlar-wrapped 'umbilical' cord to carry the signals (and any LV power) needed by the speakers. Using sealed locking connectors, an amp output relay that only closes once the connections are validated as safe. My direct-drive amp is a power-DAC like some of the NAD DDFA amps but with beefy modern power FET devices.

See the brochure PDF I wrote for more details: https://cdn.imagearchive.com/martinloganowners/data/attach/15/15199-MonorayBrochureFlat.pdf

 

[LuvCLX]

I have two Martin Logan electrostatic rigs with tubes. CLX matched to a pair of 805 single ended tube monoblocks and a pair of Requests with 6550 class AB push/pull. I have also run transistor power amp on the Requests. Go class A if you can. The 805 is nice with 50w. I also had an 845 single ended and it was really good, but 805 has a bit more headroom. Both have a nice sweet sound with holographic imaging and I’ve never had a problem driving the CLX or Request. When driving with transistor, they do sound a little bit harsher. I did run a pair of Apogee with 200w/ch transistor amp and fried the amp at higher listening levels. Whereas, the 805 handled the load better. Tube rigs usually have less power than transistor rigs. But I’m interested in getting the best 1-10 watts. All in all, I prefer tube mostly because of a sweeter sound and the cool factor.

 

[codesx100]

Results may vary......

To tube.....or not to tube that is the question.

Remember these two things:
Sound is subjective.
Tubes CAN drive ESLs.


Tubes may not give you the sound you are looking for or a certain type of tube may not. You will have to test, some people cannot walk from the Tube Amp +ESL synergy. I personally prefer a SS amp like Sanders, Simaudio, Krell, Parasound, or Emotiva with MLs and use a Tube Preamp with music and straight SS with TV/Movies/Gaming. Its more preference, i prefer to have the extra head room with SS amp, and use a good tube preamp for some gain and colorization.

 

[tom101davies]

well, the story goes, in the '80s I ran Carver's and B&W's DM5's I think, they had a sound like nothing else, (Tin Pan Alley from SRV was killer), moved to Florida, and after moving in, I set up my equipment at my new girlfriend's house, and while I was away, she DEMO'ed the system to her brother, I don't know what they did (nor could they tell me), well the speakers sat for a very long time,(several years), B&W told me the speakers were too old to repair, you couldn't just go down to radio Shack the speakers were very unique in their structure and eventually, imagine this she talked me into taking them to the curb, (they were gone within hours) don't know how they may have fixed it I couldn't! well, I changed jobs and became a tech at an audio store, and discovered there's a place in Ft. Lauderdale that could have repaired the drivers, I used to do it all the time, customers dropped off drives and I'd mail them to Ft. Lauderdale and then a week later give them back to the customer as if we fixed it, no one ever knew, and never had a complaint.
I could kick myself today for not keeping those B&Ws, they were unreal.
so I get an itch to replace my system and go into a high-end shop, but he no longer carried B&Ws because you could get the little brothers at Best Buy and he didn't want to be associated with that level, so I walked out with a used pair of ML Quest, and Cary CAD120s MKii and SLP3's, it's great but not like the Carver and B&Ws sound