TT & subs = Rumble/woofer pumping?

[Gordon Gray]

Hi George,

Read the link.

Quite interesting and makes sense.

Have you or anyone else you know tried the product?

GG

 

[FISH_MAN]

I have the same table and almost same cartridge. I had the same problem with my spires and no sub I moved all 2 channel equipment to the back of the room and have had no problems since.

 

[kach22i]

Have you or anyone else you know tried the product?

No, and it looks like the review does not even cover use under a turntable. However my creative juices have been flowing. I went so far as to open my old driver box and see which of my old car and Radio Shack speakers could be paired up as replusing magnets (foam surrounds are shot on these cheap + 20 year old drivers). Looking have a center hole drilled through the magnet for insertion of a centering rod. Not sure how to shield it, maybe a bunch of nickels?

 

[tonepub]

I hate to say it but at some point you can only put so many doo dads underneath a $50 turntable....

 

[kach22i]

I hate to say it but at some point you can only put so many doo dads underneath a $50 turntable....

I'm writing a book; The art of doo dads and the $50 turntable.

 

[Tj Bassi]

Gordon-

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8180

I ran into a situation where my twin Descents were picking up, for lack of a better term, 'excess low end information' while listening to vinyl....a problem which still persists (mainly because I listen to other formats).

Since that thread I have tried different table adjustments, other cartridges and a few preamps, but the problem remains. I have the same music on multiple media formats, which made it easy to do a side-by-side format comparison, and the problem is distinctly a TT/record problem. Frustrating!

User211 suggested that I look at the sub woofer drivers while listening to vinyl, and it is surprising how much they move on vinyl playback compared to other formats, even in passages with little/no audible information.

I'd love to figure this out....

Tj

 

[risabet]

Gordon-

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8180

I ran into a situation where my twin Descents were picking up, for lack of a better term, 'excess low end information' while listening to vinyl....a problem which still persists (mainly because I listen to other formats).

Since that thread I have tried different table adjustments, other cartridges and a few preamps, but the problem remains. I have the same music on multiple media formats, which made it easy to do a side-by-side format comparison, and the problem is distinctly a TT/record problem. Frustrating!

User211 suggested that I look at the sub woofer drivers while listening to vinyl, and it is surprising how much they move on vinyl playback compared to other formats, even in passages with little/no audible information.

I'd love to figure this out....

Tj

Tj,

I'd like to see your system layout but can't find your system. Could you post a pic? or a link?

 

[Gordon]

Thanks TJ! Still trying to figure this out but not loosing any sleep over it!

Gordon

 

[Tj Bassi]

Risabet-

Here's two photos showing the room prior to painting and treatments, we've moved some of the equipment around to install under-soffit lighting but the layout remains the same. Krell amplifiers have since been replaced by Atma-Sphere MA1's.
Front end is a Krell KPS25s, turntable (VPI with Benz Micro Glider) feeds Quicksilver phono stage, Technics 1506 (reel tape) direct into Krell, Ampex ATR800 sits in adjacent room due to size.
Speakers are Requests with a Descent on each side. Room is 15 x 21.

TJ

 

[tonepub]

Having your turntable rack right in line with one speaker and sub isn't helping.

Also, those target racks do nothing for vibration isolation...

There's a couple of good solutions, but all expensive. The one thing that might work that's the least expensive is a wall shelf if that hasn't already been mentioned.

But using a non suspended table on what looks like a 2nd floor with Target racks is most of your problem.

 

[kach22i]

For anyone with hard floors these isolators from the hardware store doubled up (locked together) work pretty good for about $2.50 each. For $15 I isolated my dedicated turntable stand. I think it's better to isolate the stand and it's mass than to try and float the turntable by it's self.

I think the other set-up shown is fine, at least there are no rear or side wall reflections hitting the turntable where it is.

 

[Tj Bassi]

So the general consensus is that the TT is picking up floor/subwoofer vibrations which in turn are getting pumped back into the system?
Admittedly the room layout is not ideal, but it is temporary. I have an 18 x 39 foot basement room in the works, (listening area will be 18x26, the rest will be media storage).

Tj

 

[tonepub]

For anyone with hard floors these isolators from the hardware store doubled up (locked together) work pretty good for about $2.50 each. For $15 I isolated my dedicated turntable stand. I think it's better to isolate the stand and it's mass than to try and float the turntable by it's self.

I think the other set-up shown is fine, at least there are no rear or side wall reflections hitting the turntable where it is.

All those little floaty things don't really do that much. You're dealing with a turntable and cartridge that has no subsonic frequency response to begin with and you're also dealing with a pair of speakers that have limited LF response. The Aerius' are cutting off right where the subs in TJ's system are picking up all of the rumble.

The minute your system starts to get serious LF extension, your turntable problems increase exponentially. It can be solved, but it's going to take a lot more than 15 bucks worth of stuff from a hardware store. You're either going to need some kind of rack that has really addressed vibration, or a wall mount. I'd try the wall mount first as that is the least expensive situation.

Or just wait and see what the new room has in store. You will probably have different issues there. Or hopefully none at all!

 

[kach22i]

I'd try the wall mount first as that is the least expensive situation.

Wall mount is best from what I've read.

FYI: Lately I've been using my subwoofer with my Aerius, no problems even without the little rubber/cork pads. I got the idea from reading and looking at the Mapleshade mailing booklet.

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/isoblocks.php

"I just tried your Isoblocks under a maple platform holding my Rega P25 and all I can say is what an amazing improvement. I was originally using Vibrapods for isolation and they worked OK, but these Isoblock are really something special...Everything seems in better focus with a greater sense of ease and transparency. Thanks Mapleshade for making a great product so affordable!" - Sebastian R.

 

[tonepub]

I can't imagine how cork and rubber pads, would "increase the transparency" of a Rega table. Semi squishy stuff like that will only slow down the sound of a turntable..

 

[MiTT]

Yeah, I'm pretty much a fan of mass loading for turntables. Do your best to make it immune to exterior vibration. I've got my Aries spiked to a box filled with 80 lbs. of sand, itself sitting on a stand spiked through the carpet directly into the floor.

 

[kach22i]

I can't imagine how cork and rubber pads, would "increase the transparency" of a Rega table. Semi squishy stuff like that will only slow down the sound of a turntable..

The quote from Mapleshade indicates that the table is on top of a massive slab of maple, the maple sits on the rubber/cork. This is a typical image found their catalog, but sourced from a review article.

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=4661

Squishy stuff typically softens the bass and can knock a little off the top (all bad) and can affect the tempo, rhythm and dynamics for the better or for the worse.

I have some old Audioquest sorbothane pucks which I've turned upside down and place marbles up in the feet pockets. The marbles act like spikes and table rolls around very little, yet the sorbothane allows a liveliness once tuned this way.

I have tried sandboxes under my equipment, they work much better under my speakers and subwoofer. They just suck too much energy and life out of the music for my taste. Careful tuning with metal and composites can bring most of that life back on the speakers and with better energy control than the sprung floor alone.

RECAP: Turntable, spike or coupler of some sort, mass (maple), floating on semi-squishy rubber/cork pads.

Try it or some homebrew equivalent, the results may surprise.

I've chosen an acrylic layer and hard rubber under my table in lieu of spikes but once that mass has been added there are the upsidedown sorbothane pucks and marbles acting as an odd spike marriage to my maple stand top who's legs bear on the rubber/cork pads. I'm still experimenting and learning, which is one of the fun parts of this hobby.

 

[Tj Bassi]

Over the weekend I came across a TT on the basement shelf....forgot it was there. The name escapes me; supposedly from England. Unlike the VPI, this table has a very heavy platter that sits on a spring-loaded base. This can easily be swapped out with the VPI to see just how much the speaker/sub vibrations are affecting vinyl playback.
But it seems as if Jeff was thinking in the right direction here....

Tj

 

[RichTeer]

Over the weekend I came across a TT on the basement shelf....forgot it was there. The name escapes me; supposedly from England. Unlike the VPI, this table has a very heavy platter that sits on a spring-loaded base.

Sounds like it might be an old Garrard...