Treat me right--please

[johnwa]

I know corny but it was suggested that I might get some help on room treatments. The room is pretty small for the Monoliths at 14' ft. wide by 20.6 ft long.

The first picture is of the back wall (sorry for how dark it is but shooting into the sun).

The second picture is of the left wall as you face the speakers.

The third is of the primary or front wall which is concrete with drywall on top.

The fourth is the right wall and next to that picture is a diagram of the room layout that did not transfer well when I converted it.

In any event, I would appreciate any advise offered in fine tuning the room to optimize the sound. No complaints but I understand with a little tweak here or there I might be able to improve the sound even more.

 

[edwinr]

Nice room. Maybe you could pull your speakers out a little further and try some kind of dampening on the side walls near the speakers - like a curtain or something. Just looking at the positioning of your speakers this may improve your sound stage a little to compensate for them being tucked into the small space...

I could be totally wrong too...

 

[theWB]

John,
Love the system, Those Monoliths are HUGE.
Acoustically it looks like you have a very tough room to tame.
Lots of Glass reflecting the sound all over the room.
Would agree with Edwin, need to pull the speakers out more away from the wall. Would definatley cover the windows behind your listening position with some sort of heavy drapes. Because of the size and configuration of the room I would try absorbation panels directly behind the speakers. Some would disagree and say to use diffusion. But with the french doors just to the left I feel absorption would be better. You could also cover the french door with some sort of blind or curtain to clean up some of the side reflection.

Try the below links for expert help, Glenn at Gik Acoustics is great to work with and their products are great. ATS Acoustics will send you a FREE room anaylisis if you email them your information, Their products are great quality, very inexpensive and the delivery is extremely quick. I've also attached a link to an article in Stereophile on an experiment with room acoustics involving ML SL3's. ML's own Gayle Sanders and a tough room to tame. Very interesting.

http://www.gikacoustics.com/
http://www.atsacoustics.com/
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/145/index6.html

Hope this helps

 

[tonyc]

I agree with Edwin and Wayne. Try pulling the speakers away from the wall. Also since the ceiling is lowish I'd consider Corner tunes, especially behind the speakers. Although there is alot of glass this is not a bad room for planars. I think judicious room treatment will make a huge difference. Nice system-love those Monoliths!

 

[JonFo]

Hi John,

I’ll chime in with the same suggestion as before, pull the Monoliths out a bit further.

Secondly, the wall just behind the speakers should be treated with a combination of absorption and diffusion.
You’re looking to absorb anything below 500Hz back there and diffuse everything above 250Hz.

Two reasons:

1- by absorbing the rear wave of signals below 500Hz, you are taming the cancellation that naturally occurs at those frequencies with a dipole speaker. Result: Better mid-bass. Putting a ‘bass trap’ tuned for 60 – 500hz might be the ticket.
2- Diffusing the midrange and treble means the signal is not bouncing off the rear wall straight back through the ESL and muddying the sound at those frequencies. In my center channel build thread, I show graphs of time-domain measurements of what the wall boundce with and without diffusion does. The sound is much improved with diffusion.​

Layering in some light (3dB or less) absorption of HF signals might also help. So something like the 2D specular AbFusor from RPG or other vendors might be ideal.
The left side wall with the glass doors should also have some treatment, a curtain would do fine. Just looking to tame a bit of the side wall reflection.

Your wall opposite the speakers, with its reflective windows could be improved by putting a 3D diffuser (RPG Skyline or similar) between the windows. This will spread out the rear wall bounce in all directions, giving a wider soundfield.
This will also make the experience better when your are facing the windows while working at the desk.

Some bass management tools, as noted above, would also be helpful. Each manufacturer would have their recommended solutions. But please share with us what feedback you get from them.

More to come later.

 

[twich54]

John, Good morning, I too see all that glass as being enemy number one, now the guitars look 'purdy' in the corners but bass traps their NOT !

Treat the glass and 'trap' the corners to start

 

[DTB300]

Room placement is a great start as people have suggested. 38% rule, back wall, etc. People have to remember that our systems are usually in a space where we have to live too. So some comprimises must be made in regards to how much we can do to improve our sound.

Then you need to get into treatments. I suggest either Glenn and Bryan at GIK Acoustics or Ethan at Real Traps. Both offer great products and excellent consultation service. These are the TOP TWO people out there for room treatments for home audio enthusisast along with home recording artists.

www.gikacoustics.com
www.realtraps.com

Watch out for the clones or poorly performing products. Ethan at Real Traps has a great page on Fraud with regards to treatments. Examples are Foam By Mail, Cathedral Panels, etc. Review his page to get in the know about these poorly performing products.

To also help you out, you need to get yourself a Rad Shack SPL meter (analog model) and a program to read the response of your room. Get the real facts on your room from the software, do not guess. Use products like ETF or Room EQ Wizard. ETF is shareware with some minor restrictions, and REW is Free. The best thing about these programs is not only do you they give your room response curves, but they also give your waterfall graphs which Glenn, Bryan, and Ethan will also want to see.

Also read post #39 in this thread where I talk about room treatments. It will be the best bang for the buck you will ever do for your system:

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~t...ead.php?p=40760&highlight=realtraps#post40760

Next thing is you need to do is: READ, READ, READ from the following forums and learn as much as you can from other audio enthusiasts along with Glenn, Bryan, and Ethan who post there:

Audio Circles
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?board=73.0

Ethan's own forum
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/24/page/1

Home Theater Shack - Home of REW
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-acoustics/

Rives Audio
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/etv.mpl?forum=rives

Also the Subwoofer forum over at AVS sometimes has discussions about treatments.

Dan

 

[johnwa]

Wow--thank you everyone. I certainly have my home work and a good project to work on. Sage advice all around and I will embrace it but the one consistant thing (in the non-treated mode) I have inconsistancy with is pulling the speakers out further into the room. I did that a few times now and found the bass was significantly missing the punch it has in the location I have them in now.

I will try different combinaitons and have treatments for the back windows now. They are just shears but I think are a good compromise. I will have to get creative on the french doors as it needs to be functional but fantastic advice.

Off to Radio Shack and web surfing for treatments. Thank you again!

 

[JonFo]

Diffusion and absoption

JohnWa, I recommend this product from RealTraps for the location just behind the panels: http://www.realtraps.com/diffusor.htm

Does what I suggested above.

 

[johnwa]

Thanks Jon this will save me a lot of time but which one or combination? I assume the Mondo (how fitting) but do I need corner traps as well? Lots of options but hopefully it is just behind the speakers mounted on the wall which would be more wife friendly. Big corner traps might be a little problematic on the left side door way.

 

[DTB300]

.......but which one or combination?

Speak with Ethan at Real Traps if you are considering purchasing his products and he will be of great assistance instead of just guessing. If you are learning toward the GIK products, then talk with Glenn or Bryan - again they will be able to assist you in the proper direction. But who ever you talk to, make sure to give them your business for the professional help.

No need to guess here, talk with the people who do this for a living.

And remember each room and personal preferences on sound will dictate which type of treatments to use. But most rooms will absolutely need Bass Traps at a minimum, then adding in first reflection point treatments and diffusion in the proper places, depending on seating position, room, etc.

Dan

 

[JonFo]

John, for the wall just behind the Monolith, the RealTraps Diffusor (Far version) is the one I'm recommending just for that spot.

You could combine with other products throughout the room for other modal controls.

 

[kwr]

Hi Johnwa,

What amps are you using to drive the Monoliths with? I am a long term (several different rooms and amps) user of Monoliths and the loss of bass punch when shifting speakers off the wall suggests to me you are underpowered. There is a nasty impedance dip with the sealed bass enclosure that requires power to avoid the Monolith one note bass.

I would be heading straight for basics - live end/dead end, getting the speakers off the wall and taming first reflections. How to do this without screwing up your lovely room? I would be really careful as some of the biggest upgrades to your system come courtesy of a pleasant room to be in, a relaxed mood, high quality recording and a glass of wine.

I would differ from the opinion expressed thus far as I have had good results with a live speaker end of a room and a dead listening end. Seems to me in your room it would be easier aesthetically and practically to damp the window/ listening end of the room end of the room - heavy drapes, books wallhangings etc.

First reflections are difficult. Your fireplace is a "fixed cost" providing at best a diffusing surface but highly reflective. Maybe attach a series of shelves above the sofa with ceramic or glass pieces to provide some equivalence in reflective properties.

This is all distinctly IMHO. I find a lot of the time I do not agree with the received wisdom about audio rooms as the basic function of a room being pleasant so you actually walk in there to listen is often overlooked.

Kevin

 

[Dreamer]

If hanging big foamy panels and putting tall tubes in al your corners are going to violate your SAF (spouse approval factor) then you might want to look into Michael Green's Room Tunes. Small, reasonably-prices, and you can get them in a variety of colors (or get them in custom colors for a bit extra).

http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/

I swear by them. If you dig the "live room" sound (as opposed to the "recording studio" sound) the Room Tunes can be a great solution. Properly placed, they will effectively contol your bass, clean up your mids, and make your highs sparkle without making the room an anechoic chamber...

But before you do ANYTHING with serious acoustoc treatments, I agree with most of the other posts, in that you might want to move the Monoliths out from the rear walls a foot or two (agan, I realize this might infringe on the SAF) and hand some drapes on those big glass doors (and a matching pair on the opposite wall to keep things balanced) those two things should go a LONG way to getting those speakers to sound GREAT in this room. Get your speakers dialed in, position-wise, FIRST, then you can address the room treatment issue.

I've found that if my speakers arent' positioned optimally, the room treatments don't make much difference, and can actually make things worse, especially in the mids.

The Monoliths are a tricky speaker, and in such a small room, you've definitely got your work cut out for you getting them to sound their best.

--Richard

 

[johnwa]

Thank you Kevin and Richard. To answer Kevin's question the Monolith's are powered by 2 McIntosh 501 Mono blocks for the panels and a 200 watt 2205 McIntosh stereo amp for the bass drivers. The best idea I have heard so far was the wine theroy but I can safely do treatments behind the speakers themseleves without compromising the SAF issue too badly.

I am pretty pleased with the sound as is but do understand that with a little fine tuning and experimentation, I most likely can get even more enjoyment out of this set up.

I sincerely appreciate all the feedback and probably will reach out to the SME's suggested.

 

[kwr]

Thank you Kevin and Richard. To answer Kevin's question the Monolith's are powered by 2 McIntosh 501 Mono blocks for the panels and a 200 watt 2205 McIntosh stereo amp for the bass drivers. The best idea I have heard so far was the wine theroy but I can safely do treatments behind the speakers themseleves without compromising the SAF issue too badly.

Yep just as I thought - grossly underpowered - another theory down the gurgler.

So minimum room treatment and maximum budget to wine. You will definitely be happy.

Kevin

 

[Huey]

Yep just as I thought - grossly underpowered - another theory down the gurgler.

So minimum room treatment and maximum budget to wine. You will definitely be happy.

Kevin

:cheers: :haha1:

 

[johnwa]

Problem solved! I will go with the treatments Jonfo suggested after consulting with the SME who sells them as also suggested and get a couple of cases of vino or connect this issue with the Scotch thread.

I actually have some secondary wine storage in the electronics room where my Sequel's anchor the HT set up. I am sure that colors the sound as well but I shutter showing anyone that set up beyond the posted pictures as it would make most of this forum cringe. For what its worth, if you look, I actually do pull the Sequel's out from behnid the hinden panels when I am listening or viewing alone.