Too laidback?

[paulo m]

Hi,

It's been a year now since I got my Vantages and I spent this whole time with mixed feelings about the laidback sound they produce. I am always amazed when I read about other forum members saying that they get instruments somewhere in the space between where they sit and the speakers. In my case, everything--and I mean everything--is beyond my front wall, with certain instruments and sounds as far back as perhaps 20 ft. For the record, the panels are some 3.5 ft from the front wall, 7 ft apart (center to center) and roughly in the middle of a room that is 25 ft wide (effectively no side walls) and 15 ft front to back. I listen at about 9 ft from the speakers. I could perhaps say that the listening experience is like that from the back rows of an auditorium. Now, even though this provides a deep soundstage, I often wish things would be more forward, or at least that some instruments (those in evidence in e.g. a concerto, or vocals) would be brought forward more clearly; in some cases, it even seems that soloist voices are behind the instruments!

What can I do to improve this? Does the absence of side walls typically have this effect? Do I need some dispersion behind the speakers like plants or panels (I do have three 4'x2' 2" thick absorption panels on my front wall)? For those of you who have sounds in the middle of the room, what are your room dimensions, furniture/treatments and speaker placement?

Thanks all,
Paulo

P.S. I added my system details to the database, but the data is gone, so here it is:
Martin Logan Vantage
Pathos Logos amp
Esoteric X-03 SE
Pure Note Paragon Enhanced speaker cable
Pure Note Paragon Enhanced XLR interconnects
Shunyata Hydra 4 conditioner w/ Shunyata Taipan Helix Alpha cord
Mapleshade stands
3x GIK Acoustics 242 panels on the front wall

 

[Brad225]

My first guess is you need to play with the positioning of your Vantages. Not having the side walls I would not think would be a problem. Check the toe in and tilt forward or backward. Move the acoustic panels forward or place the panels to the side to see what happens. I talked about this in relation to having a big cabinet between my speakers (the opposite problem you have) in another thread.

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=3979

Slight changes in positioning can make a huge difference in the image and stage depth. Don't give up on them just try different things. Most people would love to have the room size you have. I'm sure other member will have more ideas.

 

[Audiophiliac]

I can see the lack of nearer side walls effecting the soundstaging dramatically. Especially with the shorter depth of the room. Not sure if it would be the main culprit of your description, but you never know. Of course its a bit hard to add walls to test this theory...my first though would be to try moving closer to the speakers and listening more in the near-field and see if this brings the stage forward any. Obviously the Vantages can do what you want them to do....many people have had success....so as mentioned, dont give up.....just tweak tweak tweak and all the hard work will pay off in the end.

 

[Dreamer]

Perhaps the acoustic panels behind the speakers is the culprit. I've found that acoustic treatment with MLs is often very counterintuitive. Often you actually WANT reflective surfaces in situations like yours where you'd think it would be better to be dead.

The lack of side walls probably has a LOT to do with your soundstage sounding too deep. Again, it's one of those things that doesn't make sense at first, but once you understand room acoustics, it makes more sense. Without sidewalls, you are not getting much primary reflection, or if you are, it is greatly delayed, and that may be causing the far-away soundstage.

Also, try tilting your speakers forward, so that the panels are more vertical. Since the newer MLs are much shorter than the older models, they have designed them with a pretty signifigant rake, to make the soundstage have height. Your soundstage won't be as high or as wide, but it should snap forward quite a bit if you lean them forward a bit...

Room acoustics is the most difficult part of this hobby, and poses a LOT of challenges. Sometimes the solutions don't make much sense at first, but just keep trying different positions for the speakers and your acoustic treatments until it "snaps" into place.

--Richard

 

[garmtz]

Not having side walls doesn't cause this effect. It is most likely due to too little toe-in and too much tilt back. The Vantages need to be toed in almost squarely at the listener. Try that, it will give a totally different perspective. You also might try diffusion behind the speakers instead of damping and also change the tilt, so the speakers are EXACTLY upright instead of tilting back.

 

[Joey_V]

Toe in the Vantages more.

Pull them out a little also.

I also found that the right supporting components make a huge difference as to the solidity of the image and the perception that the singer is indeed between the speaker plane and my seat.

 

[garmtz]

It all fails, you might always try another amp.

 

[edwinr]

Get rid of the dispersion panels for a start. They might work in some rooms but maybe not yours. I tried that and all I got was a more diffuse sound with little dynamics. What is the wall behind the speakers constructed of? Dry wall? Brick?

Don't forget the Vantages punch out nearly as much sound from the back as they do from the front. If you chop out the rear sound output entirely, you diminish the capacity of the speaker to reproduce a wide and airy soundstage...

Also I agree you might need to look at the rest of your system if you can't fix the problem with some adjustment of the room acoustics.

If none of the above works - I guess I can find room for a pair of Vantages as rear channels for my Summits...

 

[benleeys]

Paulo,

Tilt your speakers almost vertical. You should get that effect. It may help if you also have a couple of ASC 16" tube traps against the front wall just on the outside of your speakers. You should ensure that both your speakers are placed in symmetrical positions - toe-in (minimum), tilt and distances from front and side walls. If in tilting forward, you find that the sound is too bright, try spacing the speakers slightly further apart.

There's an easy technic in ensuring identical tilt to the speakers. Mark the front center width of both speakers top and bottom with a tiny piece of tape. Use a thread or string with a small weight attached and hang it from the top of the speaker at the center mark - like a pendulum. The side-to side tilt is achieved by adjusting your spikes from either left or right side till the bottom of the string centers on the bottom tape mark. The forward tilt is measured by the distance you have to push the string forward from the top mark (attach the string to a small ruler) so that the string at the bottom just touch (not leaning against) the tape mark. Adjust with the front or rear spikes.

Recently I had this spooky experience on my Summits when I fitted the extra long spikes from Jason. Like I mentioned in another thread, I could almost reach out and touch the piano in front of me. During vocals, it's like you have the singers in front of the speakers. Like I said, spooky.

 

[DTB300]

In my case, everything--and I mean everything--is beyond my front wall, with certain instruments and sounds as far back as perhaps 20 ft. For the record, the panels are some 3.5 ft from the front wall, 7 ft apart (center to center) and roughly in the middle of a room that is 25 ft wide (effectively no side walls) and 15 ft front to back. I listen at about 9 ft from the speakers. I could perhaps say that the listening experience is like that from the back rows of an auditorium.

This is the sound of some (note I said some) tube amps. Deep soundstage, almost exagerated too much as you note. Some folks absolutely love this type of sound.

But others have also noted here, you may be able to help with speaker tilt (forward and back) or toe-in.

It all fails, you might always try another amp.

Garmtz has made a great point concerning the combination you have just does not work well together for you and your tastes. Remember a great amp on one set of speakers may not sound so great on another set of speakers.

It is all about component SYNERGY.

Dan

 

[Caerus]

I also would also pull them apart another foot or two. Toe them in with the 1/3 inner panel "flash light" method. I also would move them towards the back wall a little (say 2 1/2 feet from back of estat panels to wall) since you don't have side walls near by.

 

[lugano]

P.S. I added my system details to the database, but the data is gone

Hi Paulo,

the data is NOT gone, it's there. But it's on the "next" page.

 

[twich54]

Just as an additional to all the other good suggestions remember two 'general' themes....1) as a general rule dipoles like diffussion behind them not absorption. 2) your room as far as speaker placement is not ideally set up with respect to which wall the speakers sit in front of. Not knowing all your annomollies, I would think you would be better served if they were out from the 15' walls.

 

[paulo m]

Hi Paulo,

the data is NOT gone, it's there. But it's on the "next" page.

Hmm I'm pretty sure previous and next page buttons weren't there yesterday... I even using the Find button and then using my name or component's names, but to no avail. I see it's there now.

Thanks,
Paulo

 

[paulo m]

Perhaps the acoustic panels behind the speakers is the culprit. I've found that acoustic treatment with MLs is often very counterintuitive. Often you actually WANT reflective surfaces in situations like yours where you'd think it would be better to be dead.

Get rid of the dispersion panels for a start. They might work in some rooms but maybe not yours. I tried that and all I got was a more diffuse sound with little dynamics. What is the wall behind the speakers constructed of? Dry wall? Brick?

The wall behind the speakers is, I think, dry wall (certainly not brick). Acoustic panels were a fairly recent addition and solve some issues I had with glare--for now the room has only some amount of furniture so it is pretty bright--but I agree, ideally the front wall should diffuse. Getting tall dense plants and rugs to cover the about 3/4 of the floor still bare with parquet is part of my plan to improve the acoustics.

Another problem is that the room geometry is somewhat irregular, with a recess and corridor off-center behind my listening position, the front-left corner is not a corner at all (has a 45 degree wall there) and the front-right corner leads to another corridor. Although some people say that irregular rooms are great because they tend to make modes also irregular and scattered, I am leaning towards the opposite: that rectangular rooms are better because you can predict and address all the issues easily.

The thought of moving and changing apartments occurred to me more than a few times because of this .

Thanks for all the input,
Paulo

 

[paulo m]

Not having side walls doesn't cause this effect. It is most likely due to too little toe-in and too much tilt back. The Vantages need to be toed in almost squarely at the listener.

vs.

You should ensure that both your speakers are placed in symmetrical positions - toe-in (minimum)

and

I also would move them towards the back wall a little (say 2 1/2 feet from back of estat panels to wall) since you don't have side walls near by.

vs.

Pull them out a little also.

This is what I both love and hate in this hobby --it's both a bit of a science and a bit of an art. Where else there would be contradictory advice just a couple of sentences from each other?

I will surely try all suggested alternatives. I already did some of this in the past, so I guess I'll undergo some more wife-starts-rolling-her-eyes routines .

Paulo

 

[paulo m]

I also found that the right supporting components make a huge difference as to the solidity of the image and the perception that the singer is indeed between the speaker plane and my seat.

It all fails, you might always try another amp.

This is the sound of some (note I said some) tube amps. Deep soundstage, almost exagerated too much as you note. Some folks absolutely love this type of sound.

Garmtz has made a great point concerning the combination you have just does not work well together for you and your tastes. Remember a great amp on one set of speakers may not sound so great on another set of speakers.

It is all about component SYNERGY.

Absolutely agree. This particular combination was perhaps the product of some precipitation on my part--initially I heard the Aeons with the Logos in a smaller, carpeted room with some treatments, and was quite pleased with the result; I decided to take a leap of faith and order the Vantages instead (new tech and design, powered woofers demanding less of the amp).

I am almost positive that the amp is not really suited to these speakers, and any shortcomings in synergy are perhaps being exacerbated by the room conditions (and maybe most amp + Aeons issues were being masked in the smaller room). Still, I would say that 75% of the time I spend listening is pleasurable, but I have yet to call it "magic".

It should be noted that the Logos is not a tube amp. Only the preamp section has tubes. I am considering changing the tubes to Teles from the stock Sovteks, which will probably improve matters.

In any case, although I would like to bring instruments noticeably forward, I know that I don't like a shallow and wide soundstage. This means that what I am looking for is probably a clearer delineation of depth, certainly one that doesn't jumble the singer in the middle (or behind) the other instruments.

And yes, I am looking at replacing the Logos while keeping the Vantages (at least for now, to avoid the wife's wrath). More specifically, I am considering something like the VTL MB450s, an Audio Research Ref 110 (although the retubing cost and low power of the latter by comparison make me uncomfortable) or some similarly priced McIntosh (perhaps two MC275s in bridged mode). I am, of course, open to any suggestions from other members.

Thanks,
Paulo

 

[paulo m]

If none of the above works - I guess I can find room for a pair of Vantages as rear channels for my Summits...

I'll keep that in mind if I decide to upgrade to Summits or if I suddenly fall in love with some other speaker .

Paulo

 

[benleeys]

This is what I both love and hate in this hobby --it's both a bit of a science and a bit of an art. Where else there would be contradictory advice just a couple of sentences from each other?

I will surely try all suggested alternatives. I already did some of this in the past, so I guess I'll undergo some more wife-starts-rolling-her-eyes routines .

Paulo

Paulo,

All you need is lots of patience. Alternatives given you here usually stem from personal experiences of members in their own unique setup. They may work in your setup or may not, depending on how similar yours is to theirs. In my case, my suggestions are certainly valid for Summits in my room as shown in my pics. That's why studying the pics of members' setup can be helpful to your experiments. Good luck.

 

[Rich]

Lots of very good suggestions in this thread. I suggest you just keep trying different placement options and see how that affects the sound presentation. You may want to consider placing your speakers on the short wall of your room just to see what the difference is from having them on the long wall. Even if you can't leave them this way, you may gain some insight into how your current setup is affecting your sound.

If you can, have a friend bring over a different amplifier or preamp to try with them, just to see the difference another component makes. Or try to get one from a dealer to audition in your home. Again, even if you can't upgrade right now, at least you gain some valuable insight into how your current components are affecting your sound.

Also, continue to try to improve the sound of the room with acoustic treatments. These may have the biggest bang for the buck improvement of your sound. Good luck with it and let us know what works and what doesn't as you continue to tweak and experiment.