To tube, or not to tube?

[Steve62]

New here to the forum, but I did post in the New Member section too. I've done searches here and see some older posts about this question so I thought I'd start it again since some new tube products are on the market.

Here is my system today:

• SUmmit X speakers.
• Gustard x20u DAC modified by Rick Schultz
• Oppo 103D for SACDs modified by Rick Schultz
• Bryston BDP-1 music streamer
• Plinius Hautonga integrated amplifier
• All Pangea power cables
• Avanti interconnects
• Clear Day speaker cables
• Furman Elite 20 amp conditioner using 15 amp power cord

My room:

• I have bass traps in the corners behind my speakers
• Also have absorption panels at the first reflection point
• Floor is carpeted
• Ceiling is about 10 feet
• Room is 12x13, but the area behind my listening position opens to the dining room, so no wall for another 6-8 feet.
• My speakers are about 3 feet from the back wall, and 2.5 feet from sidewall. They do have some toe-in so I'm listening to the inner third of the panel.
• I sit about 8-9 feet away.

I enjoy female jazz, mellow POP such as Nora Jones, chamber music, etc. No rock, and nothing really loud. Love to relax just listening to beautiful music!!!

I'm on a quest for a new integrated amplifier. I like the integrated because it's less money primarily, and also negates the need for more expensive interconnects. If I had the money, I'd move to mono blocks and a separate preamp.

I'm really interested in tubes for some unknown reason; probably because I've read so much about the unique sound, and I'm a tweaker, meaning the thought of tube rolling really appeals to me. I've researched the Primaluna Dialog HP Integrated and am leaning that way. However, I am concerned about what others have told me about the low impedance of the Summit X and the need for high power, and the right power. The PL Integrated does have a 4 ohm output and large output transformers, but the Summit X goes down to .7 ohm at 20Khz. I'm not a technical person and not too interested in analyzing in this way, but if there is a concern about tubes not presenting the music completely, I'd love to know that. One person on Agon suggested the Sanders ESL, and I've looked at that one too. But, it's not a tube.

Some of you do have tubes with this speaker, and there are other posts where tubes are not recommended. So I thought I'd ask the question again in light of the new PL HP integrated on the market, and others as well. Also would love opinions on the Sanders ESL. I don't think I need the Megtech because my woofers are powered.

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences with me! :rocker:

Steve

 

[JonFo]

... Also would love opinions on the Sanders ESL. I don't think I need the Megtech because my woofers are powered.

I'm not a tube fan and have little experience with owning one, so no opinions on that front.

I am an owner of the Sanders Sound Systems ESL amp, and can highly recommend that amp for ESL speakers. I give it the toughest of all challenges, which is to direct drive my huge Monolith panels, as my setup is an active crossover, so nothing between the amp and the panel other than the step-up transformer. Impedance and reactance are all over the map in that scenario, and the ESL amp handles it perfectly.

You are correct since the Summit is semi-active, all you'll be driving is the passive high-pass crossover and the panel, then a regular (non-magtech) ESL amp is just fine.

 

[Hear Here]

Steve

I'm not a tube expert though I used various SETs with my high efficiency horn speakers for many years. As a generalisation, the magic from tubes is best appreciated with SET designs rather than Push Pull. This presents you with 2 problems. SETs don't offer sufficient power for ESLs at realistic volumes and most tube amps are unlikely to be happy with the very low impendence of ESLs at some frequencies. If you go the tube route, do plenty of research into individual amps. Only a few will offer sufficient power and be happy with the sub 1 ohm they may be presented with.

Although no good with your Summits, there's a guy in the Netherlands who builds active ESL speakers with built-in tube amplification. These are push pull with quad EL34 per channel - over 100 watts. Anyone curious about these speakers see - http://blanko.nu/?lang=en. Peter

 

[Spike]

Hi Steve,
Here are links to a few threads on the subject of powering ML panels with tubes. There are more threads on this subject but these are the ones I participated in:
Link to "Tubes are tricky..." response
My "Don't worry too much about low impedance" post

You might be interested in the following threads since they are specific to powering Summit & Vantage panels which are similar to your Summit-X
Link to "Advice-on-crazy-Summit-system-wanted" thread

This thread is particularly interesting since member Steve went through several tube amps to find the right combination with his Vantage
Powering Vantage's panels with tubes

Good Luck,
Spike

 

[Steve62]

I received the Primaluna Dialogue HP Integrated yesterday and set it up. Man this is a heavy unit! It will take about 100 hours to break in fully, but of course I started playing music immediately. The Plinius is a great Integrated, but this is a HUGE step up. The stage, imaging, and control over my speakers was immediately apparent to me. The sound is sublime! I plan to listen for about a week or so with the Primaluna, then move to the Sanders, which I received today. I have 30 days to trial with each company, which is a real benefit. Right now, I love the Primaluna.

Can anyone tell me what music I can listen to that will show the impeniance shortfall of tubes with my speakers? I want to make sure I understand what this sounds like before moving to the Sanders. Sure appreciate your guidance!

Thanks everyone!

Steve

 

[adeep42]

Hi Steve,

Can't help you pick out music that will show benefits or weakness of tubes. I just listen to music I like and know well when I'm auditioning a new component. A while back I switched from a Conrad Johnson CA 200 (Solid state 185 watt/channel Integrated) to a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium Pre-amp and 2 Dialogue Premium power amps as mono blocs. I too have Summit Xs. Never regretted the change. Love the warmth of tubes with the Summit Xs. If there are impedance issues, they certainly don't make themselves known. Btw, if I'm listening at relatively loud levels, I much prefer triode mode. For lower volume background music, I use ultra linear.

Enjoy your PrimaLuna. Enjoy the music,

Alan

 

[Northy]

You want to add Pass Labs to your list to audition before you trigger a purchase. Many owners here have this brand and can swear by it. I got my XA30.8 class A amp a couple of months ago and am truly in awe as how great it sounds. It matches ML very nicely. The amps are rated very conservatively and capable of excellent headroom.

 

[Hear Here]

You want to add Pass Labs to your list to audition before you trigger a purchase. Many owners here have this brand and can swear by it. I got my XA30.8 class A amp a couple of months ago and am truly in awe as how great it sounds. It matches ML very nicely. The amps are rated very conservatively and capable of excellent headroom.

Another Class A amp with seemingly far less power than is needed for electrostatics is the beautifully-built Accuphase A-36. Only 30 watts at 8 ohms but 120 at 2 ohms or 150 into 1 ohm and plenty powerful enough.

 

[twich54]

Steve, while I hope you continue to enjoy the magic of your Prima Luna, if it were me and I was in the market for an integrated amp here's what I would purchase ..................

http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Pharaoh.htm

 

[Steve62]

Thanks everyone for your amp suggestions. So much to choose from; I could go broke paying for return shipping to try them all. Right nwo I'm going to stick to the Primaluna and Sanders for this trial.

The Primaluna now has about 50 hours of break in and I have listened for about 15 hours. I have to say, it's still amazing! Break in for this is about 100 hours, so it should be in it's prime Monday night.

I have the Sanders and my old Plinius action as preamp ready to power up mid-week. Question: should I plug in the Sanders to let it begin breaking in? Do I have to have speakers attached if it's on?

Steve

 

[peacefulcargo]

On integrated valves I have owned Jadis DA60 and McIntosh 2275 which sounded great, the Jadis sounding more organic to the Mac. I have not owned but have heard Audio Research which I felt sounded great and would be my preferred option (right balance of valve sound with good damping /control).

 

[macallan]

I received the Primaluna Dialogue HP Integrated yesterday and set it up. Man this is a heavy unit! It will take about 100 hours to break in fully, but of course I started playing music immediately. The Plinius is a great Integrated, but this is a HUGE step up. The stage, imaging, and control over my speakers was immediately apparent to me. The sound is sublime! I plan to listen for about a week or so with the Primaluna, then move to the Sanders, which I received today. I have 30 days to trial with each company, which is a real benefit. Right now, I love the Primaluna.

Can anyone tell me what music I can listen to that will show the impeniance shortfall of tubes with my speakers? I want to make sure I understand what this sounds like before moving to the Sanders. Sure appreciate your guidance!

Thanks everyone!

Steve

Any updates on the Sanders vs the PrimaLuna? I have the Ethos and am strongly considering the PL Dialogue or the Dialogue HP. I currently have a tube preamp (Juicy music Peach II) and SS amp (B&K) and love the sound but I am curious if full tube (PL Integrated) set up would be another step up. I am also considering keeping the Peach and adding the Carver 275 (KT120 amplifier @ 75 watts per channel)

 

[Northy]

I heard a Primaluna Dialogue (not the HP version) in a store driving a pair of $10K British cone speakers whose brand name has escaped me. I found the sound too syrupy and lacked drive and punch. Now it could be the politeness of the speakers but I was not too impressed.

 

[roberto]

Hola Chicos...I have being using a Classic One twenty SE (Conrad Johnson tube amp) along with the ET-7 preamp. All I can say is this: my system is singing as never before. The harmonic textures, the big and open stage with a truly sense of 3D, with tons of transparency, the right size of the musical instruments and voices...no more hoarseness voices here. Just pure music!!!

I am still rediscovering my music. My CLXs are just giving me love, and more love. Because of my job, I have to listen a lot of different electronics gear and speaker combination. And, I really love what I have. I am not saying it is the perfect sound...but these babies can make to sing any Martin Logan speakers, no matter what model you might have.

Happy listening!

 

[tooslowmonroe]

Interested to see how this ends.

I have spent the last few months steering away from SS to tubes on my little SL3s. I currently have a Jolita JD1000 RC running the panels only and a Nak SS running the woofers. I too felt the same way you are feeling Steve...my room is a different experience now.

Good luck with the decision making and we would love to hear the end.

-TooSlow

 

[Steve62]

Update: The Sanders was very, very nice, but I liked the PL HP Integrated better. I decided to keep the PL HP and send the Sanders back. I can't say enough good things about the folks at sanders. They paid to send the amp to me, and paid to send it back! I received my full refund two days after they received it. Great folks!

I'm currently listening from the 4 ohm tap, but I'll try the 8 ohm in a few days after I'm used to the 4 ohm. Also after I've listened to the current tube assortment, I'll probably roll the two preamp tubes just to see if my 62 year old ears can hear a difference. I hope I do!

Any suggestions from something different with the preamp tubes?

 

[Bernard]

On integrated valves I have owned Jadis DA60 and McIntosh 2275 which sounded great, the Jadis sounding more organic to the Mac. I have not owned but have heard Audio Research which I felt sounded great and would be my preferred option (right balance of valve sound with good damping /control).

Since you mentioned Audio Research, I thought I’d chime in here. I have an ARC SP 9 MK II preamp (much modified) and ARC VTM 120 monoblocks driving my SL3s. The system sounds wonderful.