"Theta Digital - Casablanca III"

[Spike]

Spike,

The direct method of connecting the source to the amplifiers is so wierd - in some ways, but I've listened to the sound of two - McIntosh MC275's connected directly to a SACD/CD McIntosh MCD201 - player and the tube sound was not only unvailed, but emotionally awe-inspirering as well. The natural richness and clarity of the music made me want more, to hear these same three components connected to some Summits or Ascent i's. I know the music would have sounded even better on a good pair of ML electrostatic speakers... I will never forget that sound I heard... Someday, in the next couple of years, I will have a deticated 'music' - two channel tubed 'source - direct' sound system with ML speakers (Summits probably)... All in good time... All in good time...

The Mac SACD player is among a handfull of source players with beefy analogue output stage designed to be direct-connected. Don't assume that your $500 Denon (or Sony or Pioneer, etc...) will give you the same results! System synergy is the key in building a musical rig

Spike

 

[Robin]

Designed to be Direct-Connected...

The Mac SACD player is among a handfull of source players with beefy analogue output stage designed to be direct-connected. Don't assume that your $500 Denon (or Sony or Pioneer, etc...) will give you the same results! System synergy is the key in building a musical rig

Spike

Spike,

Interesting, I thought, just asumed all SACD/CD players over 2K were capible of being direct connected. I guess the ability to be direct connected would be listed in the product information or the dealer would know as well. I guess it explains why the McIntosh MCD201 is not listed on Audiogon, folks know and love this player and refuse to give it up. Oh well, I don't have the money yet anyway...

 

[tsd2005]

Joe,

Thanks for sharing that particular thread. It was an interesting exchange. Hey I might post there and offer our insights we've been discussing here...

I also found this extremely interesting thread on the AVS Forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=636042&page=4

If you'll notice the two posts (#98 & #108) by (Advanced AVS Forum Member) - "Shumi_9" he does an in-home-comparison - between his newly purchased McIntosh MCD201 (by-it-self & directly connected) versus his CBIII (with extreme DAC's) controlling his MCD201.
Each was connected to the same amplifier and speakers, in succession, to see just which sounded better, as far as music goes...
"Shumi_9" found that hands down the McIntosh MCD (source) connected directly by-it-self - to the amps/speakers, "Won" - sounded far-and-away better, than with the CBIII added into the audio path... I found truly fascinating.
"Shumi_9" plans on using his CBIII for his HT(movies only), not for his music listening. He uses his MCD201 directly connected to his amplifiers to enjoy unveiled music listening. Again, very interesting to me as well as giving me lots of food for thought...

What is interesting about this to me is that I've done the same comparison. What interested me about this comparison was the Analog volume control that McIntosh went with. It compares with the Theta designs, in that a digital volume control loses data when you turn it down.

I was overwhelmed with the 2910's quality of 2 Channel playback. It is an exceptional unit. However it is 2 Channel only (to me not an issue).

This unit sounds better going direct to an amp than via the CBIII in a fixed/unfixed format. It should, that is what it is designed to do. In digital, the CBIII sounded more than slightly better. If you have a Theta 6 Shooter, there was no noticable difference between the sounds in either form.

Comparing the sound of the DACs between the CBIII and the McIntosh direct was a toss up. I liked many aspects of the CBIII delivered sound, and some of the aspects of the direct hookup.

I never ended up adding the McIntosh to my home. I did consider it, but my spouse made the final decision. It just didn't sound good enough to warrant the money via what we already had.

 

[Reverb2009]

I like this response that popped up on the AVSforum today.

I have to agree with The Bland on this one. I recently looked at the D1/2 and CBIII. I do a lot more music listening than movie watching (80/20) and felt the CBIII was in a different league with music but that if HT was my priority, the D2 was a better choice. With music being my priority the CBIII was the obvious choice to my ears.
Of course, to get the best of all worlds, short of separate systems, you can add additional pieces of equipment (external scaler) to the CBIII which is what I do. I wanted to keep video out of the CBIII. Some people don't care and really like the single box solution which has obvious +'s and -'s.
Bottom line, as per The Bland, it depends on your priorities. Music = CBIII, HT = D2.
BP

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=681683

 

[tsd2005]

I like this response that popped up on the AVSforum today.







http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=681683

Yes, except I feel that the CBIII outperforms the D1 in sound quality for HT.

So really it should be:

SOUND/Never be obsolete=CBIII
Bells & Whistles= D2

HDMI inputs are great and all. The video quality switching and converting is great. However for slightly more money (about $700) you can get the Arcam unit which has SIX HDMI inputs, broadcast quality video switching, and better sound to my ears than Anthem especially in 2 channel.

Bottom line is that the D2 isn't really in the same category as a CBIII. A CBIII is for people who love sound and modular upgradability. The cost of never being obsolete in the high end market is A LOT. Meridian, Theta, and Mark Levinson all offer modular units. They all cost high 4 figures to low 5s.

HDMI will be available for Theta users but not until HDMI 1.3 is finalized. I'd rather spend $5k+ on a unit that will have an answer for me in a few months or longer than a unit that may have a solution for me in the future at the cost of me shipping a unit away.

 

[Munster]

TSD,

Are you referring to the Arcam avp700? You never mentioned which unit exactly.

 

[Reverb2009]

Yes, except I feel that the CBIII outperforms the D1 in sound quality for HT.

So really it should be:

SOUND/Never be obsolete=CBIII
Bells & Whistles= D2

HDMI inputs are great and all. The video quality switching and converting is great. However for slightly more money (about $700) you can get the Arcam unit which has SIX HDMI inputs, broadcast quality video switching, and better sound to my ears than Anthem especially in 2 channel.

Bottom line is that the D2 isn't really in the same category as a CBIII. A CBIII is for people who love sound and modular upgradability. The cost of never being obsolete in the high end market is A LOT. Meridian, Theta, and Mark Levinson all offer modular units. They all cost high 4 figures to low 5s.

HDMI will be available for Theta users but not until HDMI 1.3 is finalized. I'd rather spend $5k+ on a unit that will have an answer for me in a few months or longer than a unit that may have a solution for me in the future at the cost of me shipping a unit away.

What ever.



Call me in twenty years when the Casablanca gets upgraded with acoustic room calibration like what the Lexicon MC-12 has now, or what Pioneer Elite receivers have had for about four years now, or what Anthem will be adding to the D1/D2 here very shortly.

 

[IWalker]

It seems to me that once I'd get into this decision realm myself, the Theta would seem like the obvious choice (or any other modular design). The reason being, right now, I hesitate to put nearly as much money into a pre-pro or dvd/universal player as I would into an amp or speakers, or even power conditioner or interconnect (the "snake oil" categories), because I know that the technology is changing so fast that I will have to spend just as much (call it $5000 for the pre-pro) in 2 years...and every 2 years after that...just to keep up with the technology. The theta seems to take that $5000 expenditure and makes only a small part of it obsolete with each cycle...so the vast majority of your investment is protected. In order to have the same long term costs, you'd have to get (and continue replacing) a much cheaper unit, that doesn't offer nearly the quality of the Theta.

It also seems like a good decision made by Theta to wait for HDMI 1.3...while Anthem may be jumping out there earlier with HDMI, you're going to wish you had waited once 1.3 is mainstream.

Beyond that...getting something like the Theta fits my upgrade path much better, as I would be the type to start out with a very basic Theta, for budget reasons...and then increase the DAC quality, etc. as my finances allow. I'm upgrading without really losing much of the money I originially invested. And, I've got a top notch product to boot.

So, basically, non modular designs scare me for any video use...and I'd only put out that kind of money if I could do it towards a modular design.

 

[tsd2005]

What ever.



Call me in twenty years when the Casablanca gets upgraded with acoustic room calibration like what the Lexicon MC-12 has now, or what Pioneer Elite receivers have had for about four years now, or what Anthem will be adding to the D1/D2 here very shortly.

The software upgrade to handle exactly that is one of the updates coming this year. Like the D1/D2 it is currently vapor.

However I don't really care about them. I've used the Lexicon calibrator, Pioneer, etc. I always end up having to get out my equipment and redo it. I seem to do a much better job.

That to me is a whistle. Its a "feature," that blows. Ok more seriously its a feature that 90% of the consumers would want and use. It does a better job than people who don't know how to take proper measurements. It doesn't do a better job than a master of the field.

However a Theta unit is setup by professionals who know what they are doing. It is rarely setup by an end-user.

For me any $5,000 High End investment should be installed by a pro who knows what they are doing. Someone who takes accoustical measurements of the room, etc.

Bottom line remains:

Theta is on another realm entirely of Anthem. Comparisons of the two aren't fair for either. The Theta will have better sound in most of its configurations. The Theta is fully upgradable over time. The Anthem isn't. The Theta costs MORE than the Anthem.

This reminds me so much of all the nonsense I used to hear about the AVM20. It was the greatest Pre-Pro of all time! It blew away all competition!

No, it had more bells and whistles. It had many features that were legitimately better than competition. Did it have the DACs of some of the competition? No. Did it sound as good as those with better DACs? No, but some it did. Synergy and all that.

Yet from reading forums, you'd never hear that.

Is the Anthem a good piece of equipment? YES. Hands down the AVM unit is a brilliant unit at its cost with lots of usable features. Are there better sounding units at the same or lower cost points? YES. Do they handle the other things as well? NO.

Is the D1/D2 a good piece of equipment? YES. It has video capabilities that the 95% of the competition can't touch. The newer Meridian equipment to be announced at CEDIA will likely be as good for video, but still be Meridian quality audio (again at much more the cost). The Arcam AV9 has similar video capabilities but without the processing bells and whistles. You pick your output from the Arcam and thats it. However that Arcam has better DACs, so they put money towards sound vs video processing options. The result will be a better sounding unit if Arcam uses the DACs correctly. They have in the past... so I'm guessing it sounds better than the Anthem.

Don't ever bring Pioneer up in an arguement about a Theta. Hell don't even bring them up against NAD. Have you measured their Watt output?

I shudder at the thought.

 

[tsd2005]

TSD,

Are you referring to the Arcam avp700? You never mentioned which unit exactly.

The AVP700 is a great unit, however it can't be compared to a D1 or a D2 in terms of sound quality, bells or whistles. It does have HDMI abilities and its video switching is GOOD. It has better DACs than most in its price range, and it does sound excellent.

The FMJ AV9 is the one up against the D2. It has amazing video quality and superb sound. 6 HDMI inputs, etc.

 

[Reverb2009]

The software upgrade to handle exactly that is one of the updates coming this year. Like the D1/D2 it is currently vapor.

However I don't really care about them. I've used the Lexicon calibrator, Pioneer, etc. I always end up having to get out my equipment and redo it. I seem to do a much better job.

That to me is a whistle. Its a "feature," that blows. Ok more seriously its a feature that 90% of the consumers would want and use. It does a better job than people who don't know how to take proper measurements. It doesn't do a better job than a master of the field.

However a Theta unit is setup by professionals who know what they are doing. It is rarely setup by an end-user.

For me any $5,000 High End investment should be installed by a pro who knows what they are doing. Someone who takes accoustical measurements of the room, etc.

Bottom line remains:

Theta is on another realm entirely of Anthem. Comparisons of the two aren't fair for either. The Theta will have better sound in most of its configurations. The Theta is fully upgradable over time. The Anthem isn't. The Theta costs MORE than the Anthem.

This reminds me so much of all the nonsense I used to hear about the AVM20. It was the greatest Pre-Pro of all time! It blew away all competition!

No, it had more bells and whistles. It had many features that were legitimately better than competition. Did it have the DACs of some of the competition? No. Did it sound as good as those with better DACs? No, but some it did. Synergy and all that.

Yet from reading forums, you'd never hear that.

Is the Anthem a good piece of equipment? YES. Hands down the AVM unit is a brilliant unit at its cost with lots of usable features. Are there better sounding units at the same or lower cost points? YES. Do they handle the other things as well? NO.

Is the D1/D2 a good piece of equipment? YES. It has video capabilities that the 95% of the competition can't touch. The newer Meridian equipment to be announced at CEDIA will likely be as good for video, but still be Meridian quality audio (again at much more the cost). The Arcam AV9 has similar video capabilities but without the processing bells and whistles. You pick your output from the Arcam and thats it. However that Arcam has better DACs, so they put money towards sound vs video processing options. The result will be a better sounding unit if Arcam uses the DACs correctly. They have in the past... so I'm guessing it sounds better than the Anthem.

Don't ever bring Pioneer up in an arguement about a Theta. Hell don't even bring them up against NAD. Have you measured their Watt output?

I shudder at the thought.

TSD2005,

I’ve got to ask.

Are these opinions based on Home Theater use (Dolby Digital, DTS, Pro logic II), 2-channel use, or both?

 

[Levesque]

I was able to try the Lex MC12B, the Theta CBIII with the six-shooters (I'm a reviewer), and if you think that the CBIII is "alot better", then you are plainly wrong... A non-treated room maybe? Was it a true double-blind test? Was it even in the same room? In a dealer's showroom?

Did you ever made a true in-house comparison of those 3? I did... That's why I have the D2 in my room and not the 2 others.

But it's only opinions about sound quality... it's really subjective. Nothing more. Your opinion is not more valid then mine. We are talking about sound quality here... not test patterns.

But one thing is sure, and it is a FACT. The Arcam AV9, nor the Lex nor the Theta have a Gennum or Realta chip inside. So they are INFERIOR to the D2, if we talk about picture quality. Just like the DVDO VP30, and almost ALL the other external scalers out there on the market right now. It's not subjective. It's a fact. If you use both side-by-side (D2 and VP30) like I did, you would understand. The Gennum chip is way ahead if talking about picture quality. With a 1080p projector, the Gennum is alot better. And you can CLEARLY see it on the screen. Not an opinion... a fact. The VP30 is doing "bob" and losing resolution with a 1080i signal. The D2 is not. It's true inverse telecine AND per-pixel motion adaptive de-interlacing.

BTW, I also compared the D2 to the CBIII side-by-side with DD+ tracks and the Toshiba HD-A1 (D2 with HDMI and CBIII with multi-ch analog). And the difference was really small... But the D2 was giving us a BETTER picture also with the HD-DVD player. The CBIII was not.

And if the room is not fully treated and measured like mine, then we are talking for nothing, because the room as 10X more impact on the sound then the infinitesimal differences between those 2 pre/pros...

Treat your room fist. Then spend 5-10 grand on a pre/pro. Or else, you hear your room, and nothing else.

BTW, Anthem are already working on the HDMI 1.3 board and room-eq. They will update the D2 to the D3 when we will need it. They did it FASTER then all the other manufacturers with the D1 to D2 (less then 2 years). They are ALONE with a Gennum scaler in a pre/pro. They will do it again. Particularly with the money and man-power of the paradigm group to back them up... They will never be obsolete also.

Why would the CBIII be "never obselete" and not the Anthem? Why? It's still lagging behind the D2 for HDMI siwtching and TRUE 1080i video processing today! It is obsolete right now compared to the D2. The D1 was never obselete also. The D1 is a D2 with a new board! And Anthem are already hard at work for the next hardware upgrade for the D3... And the D1 and D2 will both be fully upgradeable to the D3... Obsolete? That's FUD.

And also. People that are saying that one high-end pre/pro is "night and day" compared to another one, or "way better", are totally loosing any credibility they had IMHO. It's not serious. 2 Anthem D1 owners on AVS made the switch from the Arcam AV8, because they taught it was better... And someone here is saying that the Arcam are "way better" then the D1/D2. Opinions only... For them the D1 was better! For another one, the AV8/9 would be better... Subjective.

All those high-end pre/pros are good. No "night and day" differences here. But the Anthem D2 is ahead of the game right now, and everyone else is playing catch-up. The Arcam AV9 is just a pre/pro with a glorified 150$ Monoprice HDMI switcher... It's not a full-fledge scaler, and far form it. They were caught with their pants off, just like Theta and Lex.

 

[tsd2005]

Levesque,

ME:
1. I'm ISF certified.
2. I've been designing high end systems for a long, long, long time.
3. I have a PHD in EE.
4. My list of clients features people in the Movie Industry and Music Industry. These are people that care a lot about sound and video quality.

You:

1. Liar. You downtalk a piece of equipment and make up what is inside of it to make yourself feel better or what smarter? I don't know what is worse, but liars on forums who try to get people to believe their lies are really the worst.
2. All reviewers can spell "losing." The difference between loose and lose is a common mistake made by children, and is generally a way to know if someone on the internet is a plant. The number of errors in your post almost matched the amount of misinformation.
3. A real reviewer would know the difference between 1 DAC and another. They would know that sound quality isn't subjective. There are definates. Do some people like different colored sounds? Yes. However quality of DACs is hard to argue.

If you want to lie about what is inside a unit that makes you in my humble opinion pretty useless. For anyone to compare the DACs of the D2 to a Fully loaded CBIII is entirely foolish. Plus you have to know how to manipulate a DAC correctly. Theta has been top of the line in the industry for years when it comes to DACs. They have a history of building some famous DACs. The Theta PRe was the FIRST....

You know what is FUD (what a common term used by many respected reviewers!)?

That people can't be happy with what they get from a D2 and have to rip on superior product that ISN'T EVEN IN THE SAME CATEGORY! $5k vs $20k isn't even in the same neighborhood.

The CBIII properly setup will blow away the units mentioned by you in stereo playback, multichannel playback, etc. Will it blow it away in video?

No. Should it? No. Is it high end for video quality for component video? YES. Is it what you should be using to get the most out of your projector? NO.

Would it be smart to have something like a CBIII or a Meridian 800 series setup with say a Calibre processor? YES. Would that combo outperform the D2? You know it.

You know what is else is silly?

Someone claiming to be a reviewer who says a company like Theta got caught with their pants down. That alone would make me never read that reviewers opinion ever again. A company known for doing it right when they do it, jumping the gun and putting out inferior HDMI product having their pants down? Sure.

I know that people can have different opinions. Some people like things that aren't neutral/transparent. High End equipment goes further and further into clarity and transparency. Some people just don't like it. They've lived with discolorations of sound their whole lives and some come to like aspects of it. They aren't the person who would spend $20,000 on a CBIII. However a world reknown concert pianist might. Does that make either persons decision wrong? No, what is best for them is best for them.

In the future before you downtalk to someone on here and act high and mighty and lie.... don't. I've tested all the above equipment (not the D2) in some impressive rooms, including anechoic chambers. I'm considered one of the best in my field. I don't have to lie about what is inside a piece of Equipment to feel better.

The D2 uses an oversampling process to try and achieve what Theta, Meridian, and Mark Levinson provide in DAC quality. They can claim their massive over-sampling can match the quality, however knowing how they oversample I know that data is corrupted. Most companies use a max oversampling rate of 384khz, but Anthem went into the MHz realm to try and match DAC quality of the bigboys.

Anthem uses AKM AK4395 DACs which are not near the equivelant of the Burr Browns in the Anthem or the Theta DACs.

As a PROFESSIONAL... I wonder:

When testing the CBIII did you install it properly? Did you set it up correctly?

Meaning you assigned the correct crossover type and slopes for the speakers? Did you download upgrades so you could take advantage of newer crossover types (for instance I have mine set for Vojtko)?

Because I clearly can't understand how you as a "reviewer," could be of different opinion than the majority of your peers. The CBIII is the most awarded Preamp on the market. The Arcam AV8 had a plethora of rewards as well. The AV9 has already been tagged for a product of the year for 2006 by one magazine that was blown away. Widescreen Review has privately stated they will in all likelyhood name the AV9 PoY.

I mean do you think that the Canadians use some kind of magic fairy dust to make their DACs the equivelant of much higher quality more expensive DACs?

No. The truth is that Anthem put a LOT of money into the Video Processing capabilities of the D2. That processing eats away at the overall budget of the project. The end result is a Pre-Pro that is tops in Pre-Pros in Video, but doesn't have the same quality of DACs so they use massive oversampling to TRY and match the higher quality DACs that would have pushed the unit over $10,000 and well out of their projected buyers market.

I still think for the true high end that going with Theta, Meridian, McIntosh, Lexicon, or a Linn and combining it with a world class video processor like the Calibre is the perfect combination. However that would cost anywhere from 3 to 5 times the amount of the D2, for about no where near that type of performance increase.

Anthem makes a good quality product, however in my opinion their amps are much better than their processors purely due to the fact that they lack the DACs of other similarly priced units in favor of whistles.

 

[tsd2005]

TSD2005,

I’ve got to ask.

Are these opinions based on Home Theater use (Dolby Digital, DTS, Pro logic II), 2-channel use, or both?

Currently on my Blu-Ray setup at home I use the 6 shooter for Dolby Digital Plus... and I have to say its exceptional. The new formats are incredibly brilliant. The Blu-Ray DTS test disc I have is amazing.

Now the CBIII will sound better in stereo playback (redbook) and HT if setup right and configured with the right DACs, etc. This is expensive. You're almost in the Meridian 800 series price range at that point.