Theoretical discussion of MLs and listening experience

[Charliemike]

Okay, so I have my Denon 2307 hooked up to a Rotel RB-933 that then goes to my SL3s.

When I was in Magnolia about 15 months ago, I listened to a DVD of The Dave Matthews Band in Central Park.

They had a Pioneer Elite outputting to a pair of Claritys, a Depth (I think if that's the small sub) and a trio of Vignettes (one for center channel).

When I sat there and listened to the concert I honestly could tell that the violinist (Boyd Tinsley) was on the left side of the stage, Dave was in the middle, and the saxophonist (LeRoi Moore) was on the right.

My current system has no center. I'm running the SL3s in a phantom center channel setup. I have no surrounds. My Sony 400-disc DVD changer probably isn't as good as the Pioneer Elite DVD player they were using.

The Magnolia room was probably 2x the size of my living room (much wider, same length).

When I listen to that DVD now at home, I have to say I'm really disappointed. It sounds great, don't get me wrong, but there's not that same impression of being able to single one particular instrument out in the sound stage.

I don't know how to describe it. I felt like my originial experience at Magnolia showed how Boyd, Dave, and LeRoi each had their own channel on the DVD and Carter (the drummer) and Stefan (the bassist) were layered underneath across all the channels (much like their actual performance would have been).

So, the question is, I guess, is this because of running it in essentially 2-ch? Do I need a dedicated center and two satellites?

I realize this gets into a debate over the merits of 2-ch over multi-channel, which I'd like to try to avoid. I'm not trying to say which is better for everyone universally. I'm trying to figure this out so that I can determine if I'm running my system correctly or not based upon my previous experience.

I've been told the newer panels do perform differently than my SL3s. I'm wondering if my panels are just old or dirty or whatever.

In HT applications (movies, HD TV with DD audio) their imaging is amazing. It's perfect. I wouldn't change anything.

Musically, I'm really disappointed.

Any advice, comments, feedback is appreciated and welcomed.

I'm grateful for the people here and their knowledge and willingness to help.

 

[socialxray]

There are a lot of factors here but I would say that the room is the biggest one since the Magnolia room was twice as wide as your room. That probably cuts down on 1st order reflections. I think you should consider room treatments. Or maybe reposition your MLs for better imaging.

 

[lugano]

Charlie, I'd try a simple test, just to rule out the fact that your panels might be older / dirtier than you wish and think: go back to the magnolia store and listen to the same disc, but in a 2 channel setup with only the claritys.

For music, the rear channels don't do much - you might hear people applaud or cough but that's all. The center is a different thing - you might enjoy its presence in the setup.

 

[Charliemike]

There are a lot of factors here but I would say that the room is the biggest one since the Magnolia room was twice as wide as your room. That probably cuts down on 1st order reflections. I think you should consider room treatments. Or maybe reposition your MLs for better imaging.

Man, I really wish I could but this is really the only layout that works I think. I'd be even closer to the SL3s than I am now.

Take a look at the picture of my system if you haven't seen it.

Thanks for replying

 

[Charliemike]

Charlie, I'd try a simple test, just to rule out the fact that your panels might be older / dirtier than you wish and think: go back to the magnolia store and listen to the same disc, but in a 2 channel setup with only the claritys.

For music, the rear channels don't do much - you might hear people applaud or cough but that's all. The center is a different thing - you might enjoy its presence in the setup.

Lugano,

EXCELLENT idea. I hadn't thought of that. I will definitely try it this weekend. Thanks for the suggestion.

I figured the rears were just of the crowd cheering and such (100,000 attended the concert in Central Park). The center is certainly something to consider. I wish I could audition a Vignette.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

David,
I looked at your setup at it is not that bad as you may think. As an experiment, I would try less "toe-in" and see if that makes the sound stage a bit wider. Use 2 channel information some live and some pre-recorded which has enough instruments to define placement. I would first take measurements or make where the SL3's are as far as toe-in as a point of reference. Also, ar the SL3's tiled forward, backward or straight on? Just another thought to "dial-in" the image.
After that is done and you are satisfied then try a DVD and see if there is any difference.

Good Luck

Jeff

 

[Charliemike]

David,
I looked at your setup at it is not that bad as you may think. As an experiment, I would try less "toe-in" and see if that makes the sound stage a bit wider. Use 2 channel information some live and some pre-recorded which has enough instruments to define placement. I would first take measurements or make where the SL3's are as far as toe-in as a point of reference. Also, ar the SL3's tiled forward, backward or straight on? Just another thought to "dial-in" the image.
After that is done and you are satisfied then try a DVD and see if there is any difference.

Good Luck

Jeff

Jeff, thanks for looking. I tried the flashlight tweak and that really did make a difference but unfortunately so much so that the extremes of the couch (L&R) now get overwhelmed by the speaker on that side to the detriment of the overall experience.

One of the things that I love about MLs is that when I'm listening to something it sounds like it's coming from directly in front of me and it's impossible to distinguish one speaker from another unless it's something like the violinist is on one channel and not the other.

As it turns out, listening to the DVD's multi-channel audio track helped close the gap on teh experience I was looking for. It also helped me figure out that somehow I had the left and right inputs on the amp bass-ackwards ... Still no idea how that happened.

So, now I really would like to try a center channel to see if that makes a difference. I have a feeling it will but one thing I hate about centers is the propensity to dominate the experience.

They are level (not angled forwards or backwards) and back to their original position (not adjusted with the flashlight technique).

I think that if I were about 5-8 feet further away the flashlight technique would be perfect but for now I'm much happier.

Now I just need a good DVD player that does SACDs and a good DAC ... and money to buy a Cinema i so that I can audition one and see if I'll like it.

Thanks to all for replying!

 

[Jeff Zaret]

I am glad you found the "sweet spot" where you like it. I could see how having the cables wrong will close or mute the sound stage. On my amp and pre they are not phase inverting so I do have to switch the cables and I do it at the at the speaker end for convienence.

As far as a center, I went with the Fresco. I could have gone with the Cinema or Theater but for now the Fresco was perfect. I blends well with my speakers. I got mine t 1/2 price , it was a dealer demo and a steal!

Good Luck my friend


Jeff

 

[Charliemike]

I am glad you found the "sweet spot" where you like it. I could see how having the cables wrong will close or mute the sound stage. On my amp and pre they are not phase inverting so I do have to switch the cables and I do it at the at the speaker end for convienence.

As far as a center, I went with the Fresco. I could have gone with the Cinema or Theater but for now the Fresco was perfect. I blends well with my speakers. I got mine t 1/2 price , it was a dealer demo and a steal!

Good Luck my friend


Jeff

I missed out on a Vignette going for $375 used on the 'gon

Right now there are some for $599. I think that's a bit high for a small ATF center channel. If another used one pops up, I can always re-sell it on the 'gon and be only out shipping.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Not to make you cry but I think I paid $525 for my Fresco.

Jeff

 

[Dreamer]

Hey, another DC/Baltimore Sequel owner!!! Welcome to the club. We ought to try and organize some sort of "listening group" for the local ML fans. There seem to be a lot of them. Then again, the fact that one of the top ML retailers inthe country is in Kensington MD probably has someting to do with that...

Anyway, I've been following this thread, and I looked at the pic of your system, and I agree with Jeff, in that you might have the "toe-in" set a little too agressively for the SL3s. You've said that you adjusted that using the "flashlight" method, so that's good.

My only suggestion is to move them out from the back wall a little more. MLs seem to like to be about as far from the back wall as they are from the side walls. Try moving them out into the room so they are at least 3' from the back wall, and see if that helps. In a small listening room, this might be a little awkward (I know that in my room, it makes for almost a "near-field listening" setup, with a VERY small, but beautifully detailed "sweet spot"...

Give that a try--I think it will be very helpful toward filling in your soundstage, and will definitely give you a lot more air and ambience in your system.

--Richard C.

 

[Charliemike]

Hey, another DC/Baltimore Sequel owner!!! Welcome to the club. We ought to try and organize some sort of "listening group" for the local ML fans. There seem to be a lot of them. Then again, the fact that one of the top ML retailers inthe country is in Kensington MD probably has someting to do with that...

Anyway, I've been following this thread, and I looked at the pic of your system, and I agree with Jeff, in that you might have the "toe-in" set a little too agressively for the SL3s. You've said that you adjusted that using the "flashlight" method, so that's good.

My only suggestion is to move them out from the back wall a little more. MLs seem to like to be about as far from the back wall as they are from the side walls. Try moving them out into the room so they are at least 3' from the back wall, and see if that helps. In a small listening room, this might be a little awkward (I know that in my room, it makes for almost a "near-field listening" setup, with a VERY small, but beautifully detailed "sweet spot"...

Give that a try--I think it will be very helpful toward filling in your soundstage, and will definitely give you a lot more air and ambience in your system.

--Richard C.

Thanks Richard. I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

6' tall SL3s 6' away. LOL niiice

 

[Dreamer]

I had my Sequels set up, using the "flashlight" method, so that the reflection was almost centered on the panel, and I thought they sounded pretty good. I'm also a Carver fan, and have been running them with the Sonic Holography kicked in, and they have not only a VERY precise soundstage, but a LOT of air and ambience...

Or so I thought...

This evening, I went back and re-adjusted them more like has been described on this forum--with the reflection about 3" from the inside trim, and someting happened. SNAP--the soundstage just bloomed! It seemed to diminish in openness and air a little, so I moved them bac a little, so that the reflection is about halfway between center and inside trim, and WOWEE!!! My system has never sounded so sweet.

Now, granted I'm running them in a very small room (about 10'x12') and my chair is in what is best described as an "almost near-field" listening position (about 7ft away from the speakers) but I'm just THRILLED with this setup. Also, because of the nearness of my listening position, I've got the chair on a platform that is about 4" high--I found that thos eIkea chairs, although comfy, are just TOO low-slung to really put my ears in the sweetest sweetspot for the panels on the Sequels. Those suckers are tall.

Can't wait to move (looking for a house, maybe we'll be moving in the fall), but for now, it's pretty darn tight.

So I guess it all comes down to your own perticular setup--room size/dimensions, room treatment, chair height, front-end components, amps, etc.

Tweak, tweak, tweak. Always adjusting, always getting better, never satisfied. I feel a case of Joeyitis coming on. Maybe a new Jolida or Rega CD player is in my immediate future...

--Richard C.