Theater i vs. Stage

[Steveiz]

I was wondering if anyone could offer their opinion or feelings in regards to the overall sound of the Theater i center channel speaker. If possible comparing it to the sound of the Stage center channel?

Does a single tweeter mounted in the panel make a significant diference compared to the 3 tweeter array mounted on top of the panel in the Theater i ?

I've been using a Cinema i as our center channel(with Vistas) for about three weeks now and while it sounds very good, It just doesn't "fill the room" as well as we would like. I have a feeling that the Cinema i would be very fine as surround speakers.

Steve

 

[Rich]

I don't have as much experience with the theater i, but I do own a stage. I wouldn't describe the output of the stage as "room-filling" sound, although it does match pretty well with the Summits. I am not sure the design of a center channel speaker is really oriented toward room-filling sound. It is designed more for mid-range clarity and horizontal dispersion characteristics. I guess I am also not quite sure what you mean by "fill the room" with sound. Could you describe a little more clearly what you are expecting from the speaker that you are not hearing?

The only set-up I have heard that has a true "wall of sound" coming from the front three speakers is jonfo's setup, which features his own home-made monster of a center channel and Meridian trifield surround processing. If you are looking for room-filling sound from your center channel, I think you would probably need three identical speakers across the front (preferably Vantages or Summits rather than Vistas because of their more powerful low end).

You mention the tweeter differences between theater i and stage, but I think that is somewhat irrelevant. Most of the sound is going to be coming from the electrostatic panel and woofers, so those are going to make the most difference in the soundfield I would think.

Also, you don't mention what you are driving these speakers with, but depending on the quality and capability of your amp and preamp, you may or may not be driving the theater i to the best of its ability. Another issue could be room acoustics. Absorption or diffusion behind your center channel and throughout your room will affect the way it sounds to you. Bass traps also help a great deal.

Overall the stage and the cinema i are very capable center channel speakers, but they are also dependant on quality amplification and processing, and good room acoustics to sound their best.

 

[music again]

Vista's for surrounds with vantage fronts

If you are looking for room-filling sound from your center channel, I think you would probably need three identical speakers across the front (preferably Vantages or Summits rather than Vistas because of their more powerful low end).

You mention the tweeter differences between theater i and stage, but I think that is somewhat irrelevant. Most of the sound is going to be coming from the electrostatic panel and woofers, so those are going to make the most difference in the soundfield I would think.

Rich,

I have the Vantage's for fronts and the Descent i for the sub.
I'm seriously looking at the Stage as my center.
My room is 15 x19 with the Vantage's on the long wall, so there is plenty of room to the sides. The panels are about 2.5 feet from the back wall and the couch is about 9 feet from the panels, leaving about 4 feet to the back of the room behind the couch.

Would Vista's in the back/sides be over kill?
I know they would be more expensive than the Script i's but I really do not like the looks of those, and my wife would definitely hang me on the wall before we would hang the Script i's! Can't say I would blame her.

I figure I could actually move the Vista's out of the room if I had to. (Company with kids). I like the fact they do not have a powered woofer, and would match the Vantages looks wise nicely in the front. Is the range of the Vista's OK for surrounds, or again over kill?

What other ML speakers besides the Vista's would be a good match? Due to not much wall at all on the sides, in-walls would not work. Possibly for rear 6/7 channel if I got goofy enough to go that route. Only so much cash to go around, and I need better electronics! I have no HT processor yet, and am trying to build a great 2 channel system first, while taking into account HT for the future. I'm looking at the Cary Cinema 11, with maybe the Cinema 5 amp or two CAD 200's for HT. I'm 95% music and 5% or less movies right now.

thanks.

MU

 

[Rich]

Would Vista's in the back/sides be over kill?
What other ML speakers besides the Vista's would be a good match?

I think the Vistas would probably be overkill for surround speakers for a basic home theater system, but there is no denying they would match well with Vantages. I use the Clarities and they are great -- similar to the script i's but floorstanding. Some other options in Martin Logan's product line to research and consider are:
used or closeout models of Clarities; the new Source; Montage; Fresco i; or Vignette.

I guess another option would be one of Martin Logan's in-wall speakers mounted into a custom made box, which could then be mounted to some speaker stands. Just food for thought.

 

[Steveiz]

I don't have as much experience with the theater i, but I do own a stage. I wouldn't describe the output of the stage as "room-filling" sound, although it does match pretty well with the Summits. I am not sure the design of a center channel speaker is really oriented toward room-filling sound. It is designed more for mid-range clarity and horizontal dispersion characteristics. I guess I am also not quite sure what you mean by "fill the room" with sound. Could you describe a little more clearly what you are expecting from the speaker that you are not hearing?

You mention the tweeter differences between theater i and stage, but I think that is somewhat irrelevant. Most of the sound is going to be coming from the electrostatic panel and woofers, so those are going to make the most difference in the soundfield I would think.

Also, you don't mention what you are driving these speakers with, but depending on the quality and capability of your amp and preamp, you may or may not be driving the theater i to the best of its ability. Another issue could be room acoustics. Absorption or diffusion behind your center channel and throughout your room will affect the way it sounds to you. Bass traps also help a great deal.

Overall the stage and the cinema i are very capable center channel speakers, but they are also dependant on quality amplification and processing, and good room acoustics to sound their best.

First, I appreciste your response.

I have a B&K MONO block amp with 250 watts driving my "Cinema i "

As far as room treatment goes, here's the link to some pictures at my system post:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=4907

I have since mounted the "Cinema i" on the wall and have removed the shelf it was on. The sound definitely improved after I did this.

"Fill the room" wasn't a very good way to describe what I was hearing, sorry.
I guess I meant good tracking in the spectral range from the upper bass on up thru the high frequencies all all levels of ampitude.

It's hard to describe,but it seems like even after I have calibrated all speakers equally using the pink noise from my Pre/Proc(Anthem AVM20). I continue to have to boost the level of the "Cinema i" to get the lower level voices to track properly and then as a result of that volume boost, the louder voices, at times, seem a little uncomfortably loud.

My question with the way the tweeter is mounted on the "Cinema i" , the panel is blocked in the centre. I wondered if with that not being the case on the "Stage", if there was a significant difference in overall sound of the Panel?

Thanks again, Steve

 

[Dominick22]

there has been much said about this topic, but i just cant get my head around the theory that 1 tweeter is pretty much as good as 3. The way i see it is that in a line array, the beuaty is that the work load from the desired output can be shared and therefore less on each individual tweeter ultimatly resulting in lower distortion.

I have heard the stage myself and i have kinda come to the conclusion that ml decided that the theater i was capable of much more than was usually required of it in home applications. So why make such an oversized extravegant center raising costs and lowering profit margins.

I could be way off, but the overall reduction in size does not seem like a plus to me when considering output,imaging,and sound fields.

I do like the looks of it better and that it takes up less room. But for me, these are things afterthoughts.

Good luck and let us know what your thoughts are?

Dominick

 

[JonFo]

... "Fill the room" wasn't a very good way to describe what I was hearing, sorry.
I guess I meant good tracking in the spectral range from the upper bass on up thru the high frequencies all all levels of ampitude.

It's hard to describe,but it seems like even after I have calibrated all speakers equally using the pink noise from my Pre/Proc(Anthem AVM20). I continue to have to boost the level of the "Cinema i" to get the lower level voices to track properly and then as a result of that volume boost, the louder voices, at times, seem a little uncomfortably loud.

My question with the way the tweeter is mounted on the "Cinema i" , the panel is blocked in the centre. I wondered if with that not being the case on the "Stage", if there was a significant difference in overall sound of the Panel?

Thanks again, Steve

Steve,

Besides spectral balance, what I believe you are looking for is that ever illusive power curve consistency. To recap, a power curve is the measure of frequency response at varying volume levels. Most speakers do NOT have smooth power curves. And getting centers and L/R to have matching power curves is a tall ask.

Given ML’s center channel configs, the acoustic properties of line sources vs point sources also has something to do with this, as I discuss in greater depth in this thread.


The left/Right speakers are line sources for most of the Frequency range (250Hz on up) and these broadcast a deeper 'near-field', with power decreasing at half the rate of a point source device.

Your Cinema is covering 80 to 300Hz with two 5.25” drivers that essentially behave as point sources. The small, horizontally arranged panel also behaves largely like a point source and of course, the tweeter is a point source. Therefore, your center has radically different power curve and soundfield from your L/R, even if the spectral balance is close.

This leads to your observed behavior of having uneven volume levels, and not being able to adjust it well. As your center will be half as loud as the L/R at ‘low’ volumes, so if you compensate for that level, the tweeter will be shrill and overpowering at louder volumes.

I’m afraid that this is basic physics and can only be addressed by using a larger Center. Therefore the recommendations for the Stage are spot on. But realize that even it will suffer from some of the same constraints.

Finally your question about the tweeter arrangement between Stage and Cinema, the Stage’s in-panel arrangement improves phase and dispersion alignment between panel and tweeter. Also the Stage benefits from the much higher efficiency Xstat panel technology, basically making it the equivalent of twice the size of a Cinema.

 

[JonFo]

there has been much said about this topic, but i just cant get my head around the theory that 1 tweeter is pretty much as good as 3. The way i see it is that in a line array, the beuaty is that the work load from the desired output can be shared and therefore less on each individual tweeter ultimatly resulting in lower distortion.

I have heard the stage myself and i have kinda come to the conclusion that ml decided that the theater i was capable of much more than was usually required of it in home applications. So why make such an oversized extravegant center raising costs and lowering profit margins.

I could be way off, but the overall reduction in size does not seem like a plus to me when considering output,imaging,and sound fields.

I do like the looks of it better and that it takes up less room. But for me, these are things afterthoughts.

Good luck and let us know what your thoughts are?

Dominick

Dom, while it might seem like three is better than one, in this case there are tradeoff’s that would lead me to agree with ML designers on the Stage’s config.

Here’s why:
A true line source requires linear feet worth of drivers, not inches, so a three driver array will tighten up the horizontal dispersion a bit, and limit the vertical, but at the cost of some smearing between them. With a longer array, the smearing actually blends back into a more cohesive wave front (like from our ESL panels).

The other issue with the Theater vs Stage is the tweeter array blocking the panel, and being offset from it as well. The offset not only creates phasing issues, it also creates a reflection point for the panel that’s not helpful.

The Stage’s in-panel driver benefits are outlined in my previous post, as is the fact that Xstat essentially gives us much more SPL ability from the panel.

The cost angle plays into a bit I’m sure, but fundamental driver is sound quality.

So given the ML center choices at this point in time, my take is the Stage is indeed the best bet.

Although I’ll be the first to say they could well do an even bigger center than the Stage, as one can never have too big a center speaker

 

[Thai]

Does the Theater i have Xstat too??

 

[Beakman]

Consider this

I've looked at the photo of your system and have some suggestions, based on my own tweaking of my speakers:
Move your speakers forward and try a little toe-out. Your screen will reflect the more sound.
To counteract too much rear reflection, get a drapery rod that covers the full length of the wall behind the speakers. Purchase a number of pairs of drapes in sheer or semi-sheer materials and hang them in strategic locations on the rod, but as "narrow coloumbs", not just hiding the wall.
Listen with your eyes closed or blindfolded. It does make a difference in perception, the eyes are great in fooling the brain with pre-conceptions and generally overrule the ears when dealing with non-traditional speaker placements.
just my $.02

 

[kcl]

Steve,

I don't have any experience with the Stage, but I do with the 'older' Cinema and Theater centers. My original ML system back in 2002 was Ascent mains, Cinema center, and Descent sub. Since home theater is a big part of my system's requirements, my dealer convinced me that I needed to try the Theater center. I was hesitant because I didn't think that the significant price difference would be justified.

Boy, was I wrong (and, sigh, my dealer right). There was a huge difference. You talked about wanting to "fill the room," and that's an excellent description of what the Theater did. I listened for less than an hour before I called my dealer and said I didn't want the Cinema back.

 

[Rich]

Given used prices on the 'gon, it doesn't seem like it would cost you too much to upgrade from the cinema to the theater or the stage used. I think that would make a huge difference in the sound of your multichannel system.

 

[JonFo]

+1 on Rich's recommendation for both Center and surrounds.

Scour the classified here and the 'gon for good deals on the models Rich outlined.

 

[JonFo]

Does the Theater i have Xstat too??

No it does not.

XStat started appearing in center designs with the Stage, then the Motif.

 

[Dominick22]

JonFo,

Your reply kinda opened my eyes to those ever elusives points sitting right in front of my eyes. Thanks for helping me understand the theory behind the stage being an improvement over previous models.
Whats the waiting list on a JonFo hybrid center?LOL
Dominick

 

[Steveiz]

Theater i and the Cinema i

Thanks for all the information. We've been on vacation for two weeks. I apologise for my tardy response.

There sure is a lot of knowledgeable ML owners out there!

I did not realize that the Cinema i was not "Xstat" technology.

I appreciate the explanation of the Power transfer curve.

I may go back to the Snell XA 55 for our center channel for now until we can afford a Stage. I am considering using the Cinema i for a side surround speaker(purchase another Cinema i at the close out prices or a used one on-line).

But, I will spend a few more weeks listening to the Cinema i as our center speaker before making any changes.

Thanks again for all of the knowledgeable replies!!