the pros/cons, ins & outs of ML electrostats? (Theos and Ethos) - please help

[grsimmon]

Hi there; this is my first post on this forum, and I'm looking for information that's simultaneously general and specific

About me and where I'm coming from: quite a bit of experience listening to 2-channel stereo with "traditional" cone n' dome speakers, and over the last 5 years, omnidirectional speakers (some Mirage OMD-15's that I've modified a little). Mostly classical music, no home theater. ZERO experience using electrostats including ML.

I've done a lot of reading over the years on the website of Sigfried Linkwitz; did you know his most recent paper mentions ML by name as one of the 'good guys'? (my words). He discusses and analyzes the benefits of dipole, bipole, cardioid dispersion/ launch patterns as compared to traditional speakers. Basically, I'm sold - BUT I want to pursue electrostats as my next speakers, not cone speakers. I have it narrowed down to Theos or Ethos at least on paper and budget. I'm not too concerned with which one, and yes I'm familiar with some of the differences.

So here are my questions:

1) Are the Theos/Ethos reasonably child-resistant? Can the panels take the occasional hit during a plastic Star Wars lightsabre fight? :duh:

2) Does anyone here have any experience comparing omnidirectional speakers to ML electrostats? If so, can you provide any details or opinions?

3) Generally speaking, what are some of the pros and cons of transitioning from cone speakers to a ML like the Theos?


Thank you very much to anyone here that can help me with your experience, opinions, stories, etc. It's one thing to read a review, another to connect with actual users! Thanks, GR

 

[bonzo]

I listen exclusively to classical on hifi. I like Stats. I was at a Bruckner 9 (Daniel Harding LSO concert today and listening to Cecilia Bartoli Gordon Gray moved from the Summits to MBL 116f.

I auditioned the MBL extensively and didn't like them as much as stats because of the tonality. Nothing else. I like Ribbons. Depending on your size and budget, used Ethos, Montis, Summit, are very hard to beat. But also try Acoustats. You might get them used at 1 or 2k and they are brilliant. I preferred them to 45k Soundlab ultimates, Quads. You need to pick up a good Acoustat, as some in the market have some good mods. If one is for sale, fly over, and listen to it. If it sounds good, the seller knows what he is doing. You will save a lot of money, they beat giant speakers in my opinion.

Good you are not pursuing cone speakers. I haven't heard a cone speaker do orchestra and piano properly yet at any price level. Like a quote I read recently, cones are for ice creams.

 

[roberto]

Hola. Cons on electrostatic? mmm they are not forgiving. If you give to them good recordings, that's what you will listen...if you give them bad recordings, that's what you will listen.
Also, their sweet spot is somehow narrow. If you are out of their center, you will get most the speaker that its in front of you.
Because of their dipolar construction, makes you nuts to choose their position. You will listen an inch back or forward from their position. But this does not mean that you are getting a bad stage, no!. This possibility allows to you to choose where would you like to sit at the event that you are listening. You can sit in the first rods, or at the back of the theater, away of the stage. It all depends your liking.
Its the fastest diaphragm of the world. It weights less than the air that it moves!. So its not a liar. Remember that the sound is a change of pressure in the air. If you move the air, you are making noise or music. A reason why the electrostatic panel is the cleanest and free of distortion. If you have mass, like other speakers, when you apply the signal, due to their heave mass, will take some time to start to move, and when there is no signal, because its heavy mass, will take some time to stop moving.
If you match any model with the right electronics, you will be in heaven each time you listen to the music.
The stat panel is a precision instrument. It will make possible to have the right size of the instruments, there, in your place and a lot of air between them too.

Room acoustic is a must. You have to take some time to make your room to sing for you. They are very sturdy, and do not break.
Because the panel handles all the mids and highs, the coherence is just right. You can understand easy on a piano, what the left hand is doing vs the right hand.

The feeling of the musician(s) playing for you is outstanding. You can sense their communication and the fun of playing that they are having.

I have being owner of ML by 28 years. And still, I get goose bumps and also surprised by the quality and how good they do sound, when you go to a friend's house and listen to his system.
My ears tell me that they are a jewel to use and enjoy. Its a magical experience every time you listen to the music. I do not get this from other speakers, no matter the price...happy listening!

 

[amey01]

1. They are reasonably child resistant, yes. But they are not dirt/dust/pollution resistant, so you will want to keep them clean and dust free. Pillow fights and the like are not a good idea. Nor are greasy mitts, instances of burnt toast, or thumping dust from the back yard through the house. But keeping covers on them when not in use will help keep any problems at bay. And teaching your kids that "Daddy has high-end speakers and they are not to be touched" will also help.

2. Ask Gordon Gray (member here).

3. Pros: The sound. If you love that pure, clean, fast sound that only a 'stat can deliver then there will be no compromise for you - no matter what other speakers you look at.

Cons: All the reasons that keep 'stats a niche market:

They require AC power
They are sensitive to dust
They require careful positioning
They are hard to drive and require good quality amplification (no matter how much you love your amplifier - if it is not a good match for 'stats then you'll end up disappointed)
They require maintenance
They can be sensitive to dust/humidity/etc.
They do not have good off-axis response
They are large

 

[User211]

"Its the fastest diaphragm of the world" from Roberto.

I very much doubt that is true in all honesty. I think a pure foil diaphragm in a high intensity magnetic field will be exposed to far more force per unit area, and the difference in mass will not be sufficient to make up for the weaker ESL field.

EDIT: not that it really matters and I could be wrong. Whatever sounds best to you.

 

[R.I.P]

"Its the fastest diaphragm of the world" from Roberto.

I very much doubt that is true in all honesty. I think a pure foil diaphragm in a high intensity magnetic field will be exposed to far more force per unit area, and the difference in mass will not be sufficient to make up for the weaker ESL field.

EDIT: not that it really matters and I could be wrong. Whatever sounds best to you.

I think what Roberto meant was that it is one of the fastest diaphragms in the world.

 

[Gordon Gray]

As mentioned, had 4 different models of ML speaker over some 20 years or so. Now have MBL 116's.

The MBL's do everything the ML's do and more IMHO.

GG

 

[ElectroNoob]

Pro's: Your friends will "ooo" and "ahh" the first time they see them.

Con's: Your 13 month old baby girl will attempt to poke holes into them. (so far she has failed)

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I have had a number of people walk up to them because of their appearance, but while I didn't buy because of how others thought they looked, I did care that my wife would allow them in our main living area and they are interesting enough and just stylish enough that she puts up with them. That said she would prefer that I had smaller speakers in there.

I have 4 cats and so far they haven't clawed at them.

I think amey01 nailed most of it.

I have a fully conventional surround sound system in my media room and it sounds fine to me even though it isn't the same caliber as my Ethos.

Having a pair of ML speakers was something I fixated on in college and I'm glad I have a pair.

I am tickled with how they sound and I'm really enjoying them, but I went from having no HiFi system to having this system so that was a night and day change.

 

[Tosh]

I hate those name dropper types, but Siegfried and I chat almost yearly at Burning Amp Fest, and I make sure to have a question for him.
SL takeaways:
Line source is good, so get an ESL that's tall enough.
Active xo is a must, and so is sealed box woofer (if you can't have dipole)
In today's ML lineup that means at least Montis meets SL approval for bass. SL would NOT approve of ports or passive radiators.

 

[grsimmon]

Thanks to everyone for your replies, it has given me more to consider. Regarding ML woofer cabinet design: I was not aware that Montis had a sealed cabinet, perhaps I need to set my sights on that one. A little off topic, but....Tosh - what are SL's concerns/criticism of using passive radiator? I must have missed that. I know the Ethos uses a passive on the underside instead of a port.

 

[Tosh]

Ports and passive radiators have too much energy storage/resonance mechanism.

 

[amey01]

I very much doubt that is true in all honesty. I think a pure foil diaphragm in a high intensity magnetic field will be exposed to far more force per unit area, and the difference in mass will not be sufficient to make up for the weaker ESL field.

The high power magnets only keep the foil in suspension.

How much force do the magnets actually exert when driven with an audio signal? Equal (or potentially less) than ES would be my bet........but I don't really know.

 

[spincycle]

1. They are reasonably child resistant, yes. But they are not dirt/dust/pollution resistant, so you will want to keep them clean and dust free. Pillow fights and the like are not a good idea. Nor are greasy mitts, instances of burnt toast, or thumping dust from the back yard through the house. But keeping covers on them when not in use will help keep any problems at bay. And teaching your kids that "Daddy has high-end speakers and they are not to be touched" will also help.

2. Ask Gordon Gray (member here).

3. Pros: The sound. If you love that pure, clean, fast sound that only a 'stat can deliver then there will be no compromise for you - no matter what other speakers you look at.

Cons: All the reasons that keep 'stats a niche market:

They require AC power
They are sensitive to dust
They require careful positioning
They are hard to drive and require good quality amplification (no matter how much you love your amplifier - if it is not a good match for 'stats then you'll end up disappointed)
They require maintenance
They can be sensitive to dust/humidity/etc.
They do not have good off-axis response
They are large

My biggest problem was also with dust. I ended up getting custom made anti static dust covers (pic). They make them for any model electrostatic. The company is audioarmorusa.com

 

[spincycle]

Hi there; this is my first post on this forum, and I'm looking for information that's simultaneously general and specific

About me and where I'm coming from: quite a bit of experience listening to 2-channel stereo with "traditional" cone n' dome speakers, and over the last 5 years, omnidirectional speakers (some Mirage OMD-15's that I've modified a little). Mostly classical music, no home theater. ZERO experience using electrostats including ML.

I've done a lot of reading over the years on the website of Sigfried Linkwitz; did you know his most recent paper mentions ML by name as one of the 'good guys'? (my words). He discusses and analyzes the benefits of dipole, bipole, cardioid dispersion/ launch patterns as compared to traditional speakers. Basically, I'm sold - BUT I want to pursue electrostats as my next speakers, not cone speakers. I have it narrowed down to Theos or Ethos at least on paper and budget. I'm not too concerned with which one, and yes I'm familiar with some of the differences.

So here are my questions:

1) Are the Theos/Ethos reasonably child-resistant? Can the panels take the occasional hit during a plastic Star Wars lightsabre fight? :duh:

2) Does anyone here have any experience comparing omnidirectional speakers to ML electrostats? If so, can you provide any details or opinions?

3) Generally speaking, what are some of the pros and cons of transitioning from cone speakers to a ML like the Theos?


Thank you very much to anyone here that can help me with your experience, opinions, stories, etc. It's one thing to read a review, another to connect with actual users! Thanks, GR

My worst problem is dust. I don't know why but my house produces a lot of it, so it's hard to keep my panels clean. I ended up getting custom made anti static dust covers. The company is audioarmorusa.com, they will custom make covers for any electrostatic. I think they do component covers too.

 

[sb6]

Mostly covered above but adding my 2 cents from being a previous ML owner (had SL3s and Summits) now back to cone speakers.

Pros:
- good at mid range freq, better with tubes
- large sound stage
- interesting conversation piece
- fast panel response

Cons:
- sub optimal woofer - panel integration (newer models are better though but not seamless)
- require significant space behind the speakers (not good for smaller rooms)
- very small sweet spot (don't sneeze or fart while listening)
- require amplification capable of handling a low impedance load
- need to be near an outlet or require a long AC PC
- panels usually require replacement after x# years use - expensive venture
- lack of dynamics vs cones
- lack of focus at louder levels with complex musical passages (e.g.: not the best choice is you like Van Halen at >90dB)

 

[Stefan_DR3]

No side wall reflections is the biggest benefit in your average domestic room. Cable forums are filled with pleas from people wishing to tame down brightness problems with fancy cables but they have untreated walls. Read the owners manual where they talk about the spherical dispersion pattern of dome tweeters vs. line pattern of panels.

ML also said they poked hundreds of holes in panels during their testing with no problem.

 

[sb6]

No side wall reflections is the biggest benefit in your average domestic room. Cable forums are filled with pleas from people wishing to tame down brightness problems with fancy cables but they have untreated walls. Read the owners manual where they talk about the spherical dispersion pattern of dome tweeters vs. line pattern of panels.

ML also said they poked hundreds of holes in panels during their testing with no problem.

I would counter the side wall benefit with the front wall debacle that needs to be managed with dipoles. There is no free lunch here...

 

[Stefan_DR3]

I would counter the side wall benefit with the front wall debacle that needs to be managed with dipoles. There is no free lunch here...

It works well in my living room with minimal time spent positioning and no special wall / ceiling treatment. I can finally crank the volume with no upper-mid glare

ML says the front wall reflections, if timed correctly at 2-3 feet from back of the panel, provide a nice sense of depth. Longer reflections from side walls / ceiling confuse the brain.

 

[sb6]

It works well in my living room with minimal time spent positioning and no special wall / ceiling treatment. I can finally crank the volume with no upper-mid glare

ML says the front wall reflections, if timed correctly at 2-3 feet from back of the panel, provide a nice sense of depth. Longer reflections from side walls / ceiling confuse the brain.

Depends on the size and shape of your room and listening position. But in most cases any delay <= 15 msec (=>~17 feet) should be treated, so 2-3 feet = 4-6 feet delay requires treatment irrespective of what ML wants you to believe. I encourage you to read posts from this forum. Net is - pretty much everyone agrees the rear wave needs to be "managed". Whether you use absorption, diffusion or some combo is the only point of debate.