The more power the better

[Audioquest]

Out of shear wonder and as an interim measure, I bought a Carver A760x amplifier. I had just sold my Monarchy Audio SA-160's which sound simply amazing in every respect, just not power houses.

This Carver behemoth puts out a rated 380/ch @ 8 ohms 600 watts @ 4ohm and at 2ohm 1150 watts per channel. :rocker:
You could probably start most speakers on fire with this monster.

I have owned a lot of Carver gear over the years, and in most cases wasn't really all that down with their particular sound so I haven't owned any for a while. (m1.0t, m4.0t, Silver Seven monos, several others)

From what I've read, the 760 is one of the last units built in the US Carver Factory (after Bob C left) before it went over seas.

All I can say is this amp really does turn the Logans on with solid bass and lots of detail, coupled to a Sonic Frontiers tube preamp. I wouldn't have any ill feelings recommending this model to a friend.

 

[rhd1953]

Was this at canuckaudiomart for $600?

Just searched on Carver A760x after reading your post and found one that sold for $600 (http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/80124-carver_a760x/). Was that the one you got? The guy was running Martin Loagans with it too.

I'd love to try that on my CLS IIa's, esp. since that's my kind of price!

 

[Audioquest]

Just searched on Carver A760x after reading your post and found one that sold for $600 (http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/80124-carver_a760x/). Was that the one you got? The guy was running Martin Loagans with it too.

I'd love to try that on my CLS IIa's, esp. since that's my kind of price!

Yes, that was me. Fantastic condition, OBM. The fellow replaced it with Adcom GFA-565 monos I think.

I bought it as a trial as it was a good price, not a lot to lose even if I didn't like it and let it go for less soon after. I like this amp a lot and will probably keep it for at least a while. It sounds a lot better than it deserves to for the price. The power is insane. At about the 10 o'clock position it's much, much louder than the Monarchy's at 12 yet it remains clear and has that kick you in the stomach bass that is not boomy or bloated in any way. Surprisingly it has a very decent amount of soundstage depth and detail, which I somewhat attribute to the preamp.
I'm still a little amazed by it to be quite honest as previous Carvers i listed above really didn't sound good to me at all.

 

[Cherian]

I have owned a few of the A-500x the smaller brother of the A-760x. These are indeed powerful amps and they were designed for HT application (x = THX). I think this is why the bass sounds so good. I found my Monarchy SE-100 Delux to be a more musical amp that the Carver "A" line.

 

[Audioquest]

I have owned a few of the A-500x the smaller brother of the A-760x. These are indeed powerful amps and they were designed for HT application (x = THX). I think this is why the bass sounds so good. I found my Monarchy SE-100 Delux to be a more musical amp that the Carver "A" line.

You are right on the more musical part of the Monarchy amps. The SE-160's I had did everything right with a truely liquid and real life detailed midrange and higher frequencies.
This Carver though does most everything right, and what it doesn't it makes up for in shear muscle. It has something like 10 mosfets per channel and it's a real monster physically. I have a pretty deep component stand and it barely fits.
I removed the hard-wired power cord and installed an IEC connector so I could use a better choice of cords.
If and when I do let this go, I'll never go back to less than 250/channel though as long as I have ML's...they just love it.
Mostly I listen to jazz, folk, acoustic, some rock.

 

[mikesinger]

i have tried a lot of different amps over the years.. i really like the effortlessness of big amps. if i didnt own the my current amps- i really like the audio research vt 100 mkii

 

[JonFo]

Yep, big, high-current amps are the ticket for these speakers.

Besides one big amp, people can look into multi-amping, either vertical bi-amping or going all active crossovers with dedicated amps per driver.

I run 15 channels in my rig (12 with Sunfire), the least of which is 200w, and never ever run out of SPL ability at any frequency range.

Bob Carver is quite the genius, he definitely knows how to get a lot of power out of some pretty light (relatively speaking) boxes.

The one thing to watch for with Carvers and Sunfires is that that the caps (like those in any amp) drift out of spec over a decade or two. So amps >12 years old should be bench-tested and have their caps and other key components replaced. Given the topology of the tracking downconverter having the circuit components in-spec is critical.

There are several carver service locations (look at the carver forum) and Sunfire offers a very nice flat rate of $350 to service any of their amps.

I recently sent a Sunfire Stereo amp back that I purchased new in 1992, and they replaced about 35 parts for the one flat rate. Resulting performance has been great.

 

[DTB300]

I found my Monarchy SE-100 Deluxe to be a more musical amp that the Carver "A" line.

Right on Cherian...I will take musicality over muscle, power, marketing hype figures, etc. any day of the week. Quality over Quantity - period.

If people want power, there is always the Pro Line of Amps from Crown, etc. where you can get 5k of power never having to worry about having enough muscle.

 

[Audioquest]

Right on Cherian...I will take musicality over muscle, power, marketing hype figures, etc. any day of the week. Quality over Quantity - period.

If people want power, there is always the Pro Line of Amps from Crown, etc. where you can get 5k of power never having to worry about having enough muscle.

Definitely, I'd take refined sound over most cheap brute force amps any time. There are a lot of muscle amps out there that sound just terrible, but the Carver surprised me in a nice way. I've owned Bryston, CJ, Sonic Frontiers to name a couple and not saying the Carver is better sounding, but it's close enough for me to keep it for a while. Usually with every amp I've had, once it's warmed up within 15 minutes or so I know if I am going to keep it or let it go very, very soon.
To me the ML's need a good balance of power and finesse to bring out their best.

 

[Rich]

I will take musicality over muscle, power, marketing hype figures, etc. any day of the week. Quality over Quantity - period.

Definitely, I'd take refined sound over most cheap brute force amps any time.

I agree with these sentiments, but I think the key here is that most ML's excel when you can combine the two. That, in my opinion, is why amps such as the Pass Labs, Plinius, Sanders Sound Systems, and Conrad Johnson (Premier 350) sound so great with Martin Logans. They provide clean quality power in abundance to the speakers. They give you tons of current, producing gobs of detail and a very dynamic, musical presentation. They never clip or run out of steam on transients and continue to sound great no matter how loud you like to turn up the volume. To me, that is the perfect matchup with these speakers.

I'm not familiar with Carver's earlier amps, but the Sunfire amps are a great match with the Logans too, at a more reasonable price point than a lot of high-powered amps. But they tend to be a little bit darker in tone to me than the brands mentioned above.

 

[eknuds01]

Rich I notice the same thing with Sunfire (in reference to your comment about being darker) when I compared the Symphonic Ref to my old yamaha integrated amp. But Dan pointed something out to me...is the amp darker, or am I just hearing better/tighter/more focused bass? To me, the bass wasn't necessarily more pronounced (abnormally louder on the bottom end) but the sound had more 'weight.' It was if the amp gave more extension to the bottom end.

Granted I did not have the opportunity to compare the Sunfire to other high powered amps like the Pass or Conrad Johnson models you mentioned in your post.

 

[Audioquest]

I agree with these sentiments, but I think the key here is that most ML's excel when you can combine the two. That, in my opinion, is why amps such as the Pass Labs, Plinius, Sanders Sound Systems, and Conrad Johnson (Premier 350) sound so great with Martin Logans. They provide clean quality power in abundance to the speakers. They give you tons of current, producing gobs of detail and a very dynamic, musical presentation. They never clip or run out of steam on transients and continue to sound great no matter how loud you like to turn up the volume. To me, that is the perfect matchup with these speakers.

I'm not familiar with Carver's earlier amps, but the Sunfire amps are a great match with the Logans too, at a more reasonable price point than a lot of high-powered amps. But they tend to be a little bit darker in tone to me than the brands mentioned above.

You definitely get what you pay for, it's just that I've found it's too often a law of diminishing return in audio.
The earlier Carvers, IMHO and I've owned several, where pretty much crap. The Silver Seven (insane power) monos being possibly the worst sounding amps I ever owned, only running a close second was the m4.0t. Lifeless and no depth at all. Tons of power though. Even an old BGW pro amp I had many years ago sounded better. I guess this is what surprised me on the A760x as it's so different. Someone had told me it was the same architecture as the Sunfire or something along that design.

 

[David Matz]

I agree with these sentiments, but I think the key here is that most ML's excel when you can combine the two. That, in my opinion, is why amps such as the Pass Labs, Plinius, Sanders Sound Systems, and Conrad Johnson (Premier 350) sound so great with Martin Logans. They provide clean quality power in abundance to the speakers. They give you tons of current, producing gobs of detail and a very dynamic, musical presentation. They never clip or run out of steam on transients and continue to sound great no matter how loud you like to turn up the volume. To me, that is the perfect matchup with these speakers.

I'm not familiar with Carver's earlier amps, but the Sunfire amps are a great match with the Logans too, at a more reasonable price point than a lot of high-powered amps. But they tend to be a little bit darker in tone to me than the brands mentioned above.

Rich,

Very well said. Ultimately you want both. When you hit the $7k-$10K price point (or higher), tradeoffs of muscle vs. musicality no longer need to be made. Just plug in that powerful SS amp(s), your jaw drops and your eyes may water at times. You lose about a week of sleep, but it's worth it.

I think that the stuff at that price point is way much better than anything else, that all other stuff sounds second rate to me. But haul in those amps and listen for yourself, of course.

 

[DTB300]

I agree with these sentiments, but I think the key here is that most ML's excel when you can combine the two. That, in my opinion, is why amps such as the Pass Labs, Plinius, Sanders Sound Systems, and Conrad Johnson (Premier 350) sound so great with Martin Logans.

Rich, you know I am with you on this one.

But with this thread being all about LARGE RATED powered amps, one has to make sure not to confuse power "ratings" with quality of sound. If so then an amp like the Plinius may not even be considered quality with its "lowish stereo" power rating.

 

[Rich]

But with this thread being all about LARGE RATED powered amps, one has to make sure not to confuse power "ratings" with quality of sound. If so then an amp like the Plinius may not even be considered quality with its "lowish stereo" power rating.

Absolutely, Dan. And I think it is a great point to bring to the discussion, too.

 

[Rich]

Rich I notice the same thing with Sunfire (in reference to your comment about being darker) when I compared the Symphonic Ref to my old yamaha integrated amp. But Dan pointed something out to me...is the amp darker, or am I just hearing better/tighter/more focused bass?

I make this comment specifically in reference to direct comparisons with my Pass Labs X350.5 and my Sanders Sound Systems ESL monoblocs, both of which produce deep, tight, accurate bass. They were both more neutral and open than the Sunfire amps I have compared them to. The Sunfires were noticeably darker in tone by comparison. The Sunfire amps still sound good overall and are certainly better than many other amps I have heard. For the money, I think they are great amps. But they just don't hold a candle to these other (more expensive) amps in terms of neutrality and musicality. The Sanders amp is the most neutral and true-to-the-source amp I have ever heard. The Pass is ever so slightly warmer, but still very close to neutral and incredibly musical.

 

[Audioquest]

Absolutely, Dan. And I think it is a great point to bring to the discussion, too.

Definitely, the sky's the limit if you have the wallet to support the best sound and the most power. Me, I am not in the 7 figure league, so I balance my audio against other hobbies ind interests.
I sure do appreciate what manufacturers can do though whenever I am in a truely high end shop with better gear than most can afford.
I highly doubt you can compare a Carver to Krell, Bryston or many other truely more refined pieces out there.
Sadly my tastes are higher than my income so I have to compromise!
Anyway, I certainly wasn't trying to say this particular amp has better sonic qualities than a lot of them, just wanted to mention how much the ML's love the power.

 

[Spike]

Did someone say LARGE rated power amplifier?

Rich, you know I am with you on this one.

But with this thread being all about LARGE RATED powered amps, one has to make sure not to confuse power "ratings" with quality of sound. If so then an amp like the Plinius may not even be considered quality with its "lowish stereo" power rating.

If LARGE RATED amplifier is what you want, this Boulder amplifier certainly qualifies, weighing in at 1kW into 8ohms. On the other hand, there's the GamuT S300 mkII coming in at 300wpc, using only ONE MOSFET transistor per channel! No small feat!

Spike

 

[Audioquest]

If LARGE RATED amplifier is what you want, this Boulder amplifier certainly qualifies, weighing in at 1kW into 8ohms. On the other hand, there's the GamuT S300 mkII coming in at 300wpc, using only ONE MOSFET transistor per channel! No small feat!

Spike

Wow, that certainly is a beast! I don't think I'd ever need that, but I sure won't go for low power on the Logan's again. I'm sure that Gamut would be amazing judging by their equipment, just a lot more $$$ than I'll invest.

 

[Rich]

Definitely, the sky's the limit if you have the wallet to support the best sound and the most power.

. . .

Sadly my tastes are higher than my income so I have to compromise!

It is unfortunate but true that quality costs money. And while spending tons of money doesn't guarantee quality, it is truly difficult to find great quality on a budget. And in this hobby, it is really easy for your tastes to exceed your means.