The DON / redux

[Brad225]

Brad, did you even read the article? Do you have some dispute with the facts and analysis it laid out? Or did you just want to dismiss what I have to say as biased because I’m not equally citing Breitbart? The Hill has some of the most centrist reporting of Washington politics and policy that you can find. Geez, it’s not like I put a HuffPost or Mother Jones article up there.

As for your point on tribalism, it falls flat. Had the dems been included in the process, or heck, had the republicans even followed normal process, then you may have had a point. But when you completely shut one side out, and rush through a bill with no hearings or debate, you can’t then complain of tribalism because none of them vote for your bill. When the republicans passed tax reform in 1986, there were a dozen hearings and the process took six months. This time? No hearings and it’s pushed through in a matter of weeks. That, my friend, is tribalism.

Your use of the label tax reform is a joke. What “reform”? This is a giveaway to the rich and a means to jack up the deficit so they can use that as an excuse to gut Medicaid, Social Security and welfare programs down the road. Nothing more. And I say that as someone who will greatly benefit from this godawful law once it’s passed.

Rich, I think you have your own agenda you want to be true. As I have said, all I want is the truth or as much as we will ever get. Those that committed crimes should go to jail.
You are basing yours on mostly on others opinion and alleged facts that we don't really know.

If Trump, his family and many of his cabinet and advisors go to jail because they are found guilty I have no issue with that. The reality is the FACTS are not out at this time.

Yes I did read the article and I stand by my left center comment.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Mark, The conspiracy theory approach is pretty much left to the Liberals. Yes left-center.

I think this is actually pretty close to accurate.

Better news is at the top, crap at the bottom, Left of center is left and right of center is right.

The Hill is just barely left of Fox but Fox is NOT the center!

The Hill fits into the REAL NEWS category.

Notice that USA Today and CNN are considered nearly ClickBait barely better than reading nothing at all.
I would tend to think CNN should be further left than shown, but agree it is pretty crappy news.

What you can see is that both MSNBC and FOX have "some" reputable biased content but both them them have the bulk of their news in the hyper partisan category.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Rich, I think you have your own agenda you want to be true. As I have said, all I want is the truth or as much as we will ever get. Those that committed crimes should go to jail.
You are basing yours on mostly on others opinion and alleged facts that we don't really know.

If Trump, his family and many of his cabinet and advisors go to jail because they are found guilty I have no issue with that. The reality is the FACTS are not out at this time.

Yes I did read the article and I stand by my left center comment.

Hi Brad,

Agree if facts prove committed crimes, off to jail they go.

Your comments suggest that Rich is way left of center. If I had to choose, I know who I'd bet on for factual accuracy.

Best,

Gordon

 

[Rich]

Rich, I think you have your own agenda you want to be true. As I have said, all I want is the truth or as much as we will ever get. Those that committed crimes should go to jail.
You are basing yours on mostly on others opinion and alleged facts that we don't really know.

Brad, I have no agenda. I do have very strong opinions, which are based on my knowledge, experience, and my own analysis of what I read. I also use common sense and a basic understanding of human psychology. Why has almost everyone involved in the Trump campaign lied or mislead regarding their contacts with Russia? Some even lying to the FBI and risking jail? Why has someone like Trump tried to discredit the news media, tried to shut down the investigation, and screams “no collusion” every chance he gets? Why did he question whether he could pardon himself? Why have his attorneys shifted from the “no collusion / no obstruction” argument to the “collusion is not a crime / president cannot obstruct” argument? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see what’s going on here. This is a poorly executed attempt at a cover-up. And what else would they be covering up if not the fact that they absolutely did collude with Russia to sway the election in their favor? I’ve just laid out some of the basics here. When you really get knee-deep into all of the details of what we know so far, it’s even more damning.

I am definitely liberal leaning on most issues and I don’t think I’ve ever tried to hide that. At the same time, I have no problem leaning conservative when I think the facts/issues/candidate merits that. In that regard, I think I am closer to the center than many liberals. (I attended Law School in Oregon, and I felt like a Reagan Conservative compared to most Oregonians).

If you really want the truth, then I expect you are cheering Mueller on. He has a longstanding reputation as one of the finest nonpartisan career prosecutors of our time. Whatever the truth is, he will find it. I think you may be disappointed in the results though. I don’t expect to see Trump in jail. I just expect he will be impeached from office. Now someone like Manafort or Kushner could end up in jail, if Trump or Pence doesn’t pardon them first.

Mark’s chart above is interesting. I may disagree a bit with certain things, like how high up the vertical axis they have HuffPost and Fox News, but overall I think it’s pretty accurate. I think a lot of strong conservatives like yourself have a skewed perspective of what “center” is. They think they are the center and everything to the left of them is “liberally-biased”. That’s not really how it works.

As for conspiracy theories being “left to the liberals”, I can’t even believe you would say that with a straight face. Birther conspiracy? Seth Rich conspiracy? Pizzagate? Should I go on?

 

[timm]

What a waste of time and energy this is. Oh money as well. It is pretty obvious each party will lie, cheat and steal to show the other is defective. Everyone has an agenda - nobody can be believed. None of this is for the betterment of the country - only one's agenda whatever that might be.

The Dems STILL don't understand why they lost and want to blame people's decisions on bots or Russians or collusion or fill in the blank. Certainly not one of the most unlikeable candidates in the history of candidates they put up. This inability to understand people's votes while playing the blame game (i.e. No ownership in this loss ) will only come back to bite them in future elections. It started immediately following the loss with the recount because of Russian hacks , followed by the 'vote your conscience ' campaign starring none other than the president of the west wing who fathered the nut job named Charlie sheen. Now let's start impeachment hearings.

Ah yes - our tax dollars hard at work.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

It is pretty obvious each party will lie, cheat and steal to show the other is defective. Everyone has an agenda - nobody can be believed. None of this is for the betterment of the country - only one's agenda whatever that might be.

That is the false equivalence that is destroying rational thought.

Yes, if you look at enough history on any politician you will probably be able to catch each of them in a lie, partial lie or omission of truth.

BUT that in no way makes an occasional lie anywhere near the level that Trump has taken things to. He is way out there in unmarked crazy territory frequently contradicting himself and swearing whatever he is saying at that very second is the absolute truth. He can barely string 3 sentences together without saying something that is obviously a lie, misrepresentation or totally ludicrous.

 

[timm]

That is the false equivalence that is destroying rational thought.

Yes, if you look at enough history on any politician you will probably be able to catch each of them in a lie, partial lie or omission of truth.
.

Lol. Really? I think you need to listen to both sides a little harder. What we seem to be doing these days is lie then justify it by saying 'oh yah? Well what about his lie?'

And it's not necessarily lying per se. Let's just call it skewing of the truth to fit your agenda. That seems like rational thought on my part.

 

[Rich]

Timm, I think democrats understand that Hillary wasn’t a perfect candidate. That’s why so many supported Sanders. But she was definitely qualified, having served as a Senator and Secretary of State. And I think democrats understand that she wasn’t charismatic like her husband. And certainly, she had an uphill battle just because she was a woman. At the same time, I think you are discounting (perhaps intentionally) just how close this race was and how much of an effect on the outcome the Russians had. Don’t forget that she won the popular vote. Small changes in voter distribution in a handful of states and she comes away the winner. That’s why the Russian disinformation campaign and selective hacking/leaking of emails was so effective. The Russians didn’t have to convince everyone. They just had to influence a few people in a few states. It’s the same thing they did in Ukraine to get their preferred person elected there. I’m quite surprised so many conservatives blithely dismiss the Russians meddling in our elections as if it were no big deal. I thought conservatives were big on patriotism? With Trump in charge, it seems conservatives now believe Russia, Turkey, and Syria are our allies and NATO are our enemies. WTF? By the way, the deadline has passed for the President to impose sanctions on Russia according to the law passed by Congress and signed by him. But they still haven’t been imposed. Curious, no?

 

[timm]

Rich - you and I both know there is no way trump wins / then he did. The party is way better off sucking it up - blaming poor campaign strategy - coming off a two term president- understanding they might be out of touch with what used to be their base - blue collar and unions - and appeal more to people with mortgages over 500k and property taxes over 10k you know. The rich people? I think they have kind of lost their way - and best to recognize that or you're gonna be blaming the Albanian hackers in 2020.

If you recall - we counted the Reps out after 2012. They were supposed to become more diverse. Then they went and killed elections everywhere and the whitest guy in America was voted in as president.

Living in the Midwest - I can only say that after watching insourcing of cheaper labor, outsourcing , plant shutdowns, high paying white collar IT jobs going bye bye, and the general impact that has on everyone in a community - not just plant workers? It did not surprise me that trump swept rust belt states. He was absolutely the only one talking about it. And mark - yah I know automation - tell that to everyone who lost jobs to plants overseas. That isn't automation - that's cheap labor. People vote on emotion not facts. He had a message - she lost hers. This is what they need to focus on for 2020 and the midterms. But - they are falling into the Trump trap. The more you criticize , the more his base solidifies, the more the Dems prove they have lost focus. Because how could you lose to Donald Trump? That is embarrassing. Must have cheated.. what else could be the reason?

One other thing. Rich- regarding the closeness of the race , regarding who got more votes. I don't care nor do I ignore it. I have no emotional investment in this to pretend. The Dems are much better served by getting positive - not having Hillary stump about her new book blaming everyone but herself with additional conspiracy theories. Negative is trumps game. You lose that every time.

 

[Rich]

Touching on the Roy Moore saga again, I just wanted to point out something relevant for those of you who aren’t from this state and may not see all the related news. For many years Alabama has had two Senators, Jeff Sessions and Richard Shelby. I’ve met Sessions before, and always thought he was a bit of an *****. I was honestly thrilled Donald took him away from us. But our other Senator, Shelby, is a classic conservative and is a shrewd, intelligent and ethical person. I disagree with some of his politics, but I have always respected him, and I have both voted for him and sent him a sizable campaign donation.

Anyway, the point is this: Shelby recently announced that he will not be voting for Roy Moore, but will instead write in another name. Think about that for a minute. A long-standing, respected, extremely conservative Senator publicly announces that he will not vote for his own party’s candidate for junior senator! That is highly unusual, especially considering the overwhelming local republican support for Roy Moore. That says something about Shelby, but it says an awful lot more about Roy Moore.

 

[Rich]

Timm, I just saw your post above. I concede that you make some very salient points. But you act like it’s an even/or thing. Perhaps there was a backlash toward the dems, toward globalization, toward eight years of a black man in the White House. And perhaps Trump colluded with the Russians and agreed to favorable diplomatic moves on their behalf in exchange for them helping swing a close election that he was losing. Both things can be true.

 

[timm]

Timm, I just saw your post above. I concede that you make some very salient points. But you act like it’s an even/or thing. Perhaps there was a backlash toward the dems, toward globalization, toward eight years of a black man in the White House. And perhaps Trump colluded with the Russians and agreed to favorable diplomatic moves on their behalf in exchange for them helping swing a close election that he was losing. Both things can be true.

I agree w you. All are possibilities. But as in anything - when you lose (and I don't mean you!!) , it is always more productive to focus on what you could do better. Nobody has proven that one vote was changed because of an ad or a possible fake post or whatever. I'd actually like to see a real post or ad or whatever that was out there which was Russian fabricated. How do we know other countries weren't doing the same thing for Hillary and weren't caught? The Internet is a big place. To assume that this changed the election is a poor strategy which leaves them open to lose again. Whose to say these things weren't turn offs which created sympathy for the accused? To say an ad or post impacted votes - and that impact was ALL negative on Hillary? Well that's a stretch. Negative ads can backfire. Ok I'm making sh*t up now. Lol. But you see my point I think.

Denial is the republicans friend.

 

[timm]

Touching on the Roy Moore saga again, I just wanted to point out something relevant for those of you who aren’t from this state and may not see all the related news. For many years Alabama has had two Senators, Jeff Sessions and Richard Shelby. I’ve met Sessions before, and always thought he was a bit of an *****. I was honestly thrilled Donald took him away from us. But our other Senator, Shelby, is a classic conservative and is a shrewd, intelligent and ethical person. I disagree with some of his politics, but I have always respected him, and I have both voted for him and sent him a sizable campaign donation.

Anyway, the point is this: Shelby recently announced that he will not be voting for Roy Moore, but will instead write in another name. Think about that for a minute. A long-standing, respected, extremely conservative Senator publicly announces that he will not vote for his own party’s candidate for junior senator! That is highly unusual, especially considering the overwhelming local republican support for Roy Moore. That says something about Shelby, but it says an awful lot more about Roy Moore.

I am really interested in your vote in Alabama. I have this weird curiosity about why people do what they do. Why people vote a particular way.

I will tell you - the latest article that just came out(how timely) about the woman who was 'digging thru her attic for her Christmas decorations ' (how Christian of her) to only find ANOTHER document linking Moore to her at age 17. That could backfire. It feels planned. It feels like the timing is meant to change the election. A possible ulterior motive. whether it is true or not. I would never vote for the guy but more on his bible thumping views. I don't trust real religious people. I think they use it to absolve themselves of their over abundance of sinning.

 

[Rich]

Timm, I think you are underestimating the effectiveness of a good psy-ops campaign. The ads themselves were simply aimed at getting us to argue with ourselves over hot button issues (BLM, abortion, guns, etc.). The more political division, both between d’s & r’s, and between progressive d’s and moderate d’s, the better. Then the emails were released for maximum damage to Hillary’s reputation, which worked to cause moderate republicans and progressive dems to not want to vote for her. To get Trump elected, you don’t have to get a bunch of people to vote for Trump that otherwise wouldn’t. You just have to get a bunch of people that might otherwise vote for Hillary to sit out the election.

As for Moore, I’m not sure how much the allegations matter. A recent poll found 70% of republican voters in the state don’t believe them. But then again, if you can get that other 30% to sit out the election and enough dems are motivated to go out and vote...

 

[Rich]

If anyone is wondering how America’s reputation in the world is faring these days, check out this headline from a South African newspaper:

Self-proclaimed crotch-grabber endorses accused child molester for Senate

Source: https://mg.co.za/article/2017-12-05-trump-endorses-accused-child-molester-moore-for-senate

I mean, on the one hand, who cares what a South African newspaper thinks of us? But on the other hand, holy crap, South Africa, of all places, is making fun of us, and they actually make a valid point!

 

[timm]

If anyone is wondering how America’s reputation in the world is faring these days, check out this headline from a South African newspaper:



Source: https://mg.co.za/article/2017-12-05-trump-endorses-accused-child-molester-moore-for-senate

I mean, on the one hand, who cares what a South African newspaper thinks of us? But on the other hand, holy crap, South Africa, of all places, is making fun of us, and they actually make a valid point!

Yes. I have run into similar disdain from england. I think it's pretty global. He's an easy guy to dislike lol.

 

[Gordon Gray]

At House Intel meeting yesterday, 46Jr. testified (behind closed doors) about the Russian clusterf..k and refused to answer questions, based on client / attorney privilege, regarding conversations he had with 46 on this issue because "attorneys were in the room".

Keeps getting better everyday.

 

[Rich]

At House Intel meeting yesterday, 46Jr. testified (behind closed doors) about the Russian clusterf..k and refused to answer questions, based on client / attorney privilege, regarding conversations he had with 46 on this issue because "attorneys were in the room".

Keeps getting better everyday.

This is an obvious dodge on a crucial issue and it may or may not be a valid assertion of privilege. If jr. is actually a client of this attorney, and if the attorney was there specifically to give advice regarding these communications, and not for some other unrelated purpose, then it may be a valid assertion. If those conditions weren’t present, then it’s not. Don’t hold your breath waiting to see if Congress aggressively follows up on that.

 

[adeep42]

"The Donald, The Younger" seems to have inherited all of the elder's lying s___bag ways without being enough of a sociopath to be convincing in any way.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Jerusalem. About the most bone headed move he could have made. So much for bringing peace to the Middle East. Do we blame this on the Don, Jared, Evangelicals, wacko right wing Jews or some combination of the above. To all Americans in any foreign country, be very careful!!!!!!!!!

 

[timm]

Yes ... the capitol of Israel.... Really - this is odd... Something that was put on the list of 'things to do' ...did I read this right - since Gerald Ford .... or it was discussed then - and just pushed off every 6 months for decades..... What the hell....Typical .... Lets tell everyone we have something in place stating it - but lets also put a provision in there to defer it every 6 months via a vote for decades??...To help the peace process???. Good gawd... I digress....

Re: people claiming client/attorney privilege or the 5th or whatever... I used to think the same - 'What do they have to hide?' Why 'behind closed doors'? My thought used to be 'just tell the truth'.... Unfortunately, again, it boils down to 'who's truth' ... and how one will frame it.... Unfortunately - I think if all of you were honest with yourselves - you would do the same because any divergence would obviously be a reason to show you have lied in the past, present, or will in the future... Best approach? Say nothing... Any good attorney would tell you that. Anything from the MLO Attorney at Large on this?

What I particularly enjoy is how things are framed - depending on who is doing the framing... 'behind closed doors ' (not you Gordon - just a very common phrase) - implies someone has something to hide and must be guilty. (how about -'lets not make this a bigger circus')... the tax plan is 'Armageddon' - You're kidding me right? Terms like 'aggregious' (sp?) .... Pick your adjective.... 'tumultuous' .... etc... Trump decided not to give a speech during the election cycle ... I think CNN said he was 'hiding' or used words similar.... 'Trump's team is in 'CHAOS'' ... It is laughable... All of these adjectives are meant to influence your thought.... Highlight them and you will see.... Unfortunately, everyone plays this game with the 'Crooked Hillary' or 'Lyin' Ted' Our Politics have truly become the SNL skit Franken & Davis put together in the 70s.... It was a parody back then - today it is truth.

Speaking of Al Franken..... So, he says that if due process was given a chance - he feels he would be vindicated.... Yet 36 Senators (Dems I think?) have asked him to step aside..... Really... This feels like a Sh*t show to show how honorable and commited our Democratic party is... Folks that horse has LEFT the barn!! I am not a 'fan' of him stepping aside if he thinks he is innocent or if the whole truth isn't being told.... To discuss this a bit further - and before doing so saying I respect women.... .... He took an obvious picture that was trying to punk a Playboy centerfold while she was sleeping ... with what appears to be HER camera --How long ago was this 25 years?? She had the pic.... She gets the film developed and sees this - with him having a goofy look on his face right out of SNL.... Meant as a joke - she didn't think it was funny - I get it.... and understand it.... But, really..... Whatever... not politically correct or appropriate... I think every situation should be treated based on intent etc... Conyers - yah - I saw that woman interviewed - She basically said he grabbed her head and pulled it towards his crotch... and was employed in some fashion within his office I believe... So the Secret congressional pay-out fund (that's Gordon and Rich's tax dollars - can you believe that??) gives her a 'severance' package of 27K....

So - in my opinion -- based on what I have seen and heard - I would not have put the hammer down on Franken - but would have on Conyers.... I've also stated I wouldn't vote for Roy Moore because of his bible thumping ways.... How centrist can I be? In the end - I think real victims pain is being glazed over... We will soon become numb to it if we aren't all ready.