System #535 (Classic ESL 9)

[NEO Classic]

Name: Don B.
Location: North East Ohio (NEO)
ML Model: Masterpiece Classic
Year Purchased: 2018
Mods: Room treatments
Associated Electronics: 1TB SSD (AIFF and DSD file storage), and Pioneer 300 CD player > Oppo Sonica DAC/Network Streamer > Parasound Halo Integrated Amp (240 watts into these speakers) > Martin Logan Masterpiece Classics, and two SVS SB-2000 subwoofers.

Comments: These are an upgrade from the ElectroMotion ESLs I purchased in 2016. Those in turn were an upgrade from the B&W Nautilus 805s we’ve had since 2004. After reading about the new classics, I wanted to hear if they could possibly sound any better than my beloved ESLs. I went up to our local dealer (Audio Visions in Strongsville). Big mistake! I walked out the proud owner of ‘neo’ classics. Once I heard them, they had to come home with me.
Improvements: Much tighter and deeper base, (currently the subs are off, while we’re moving the classics around to find the sweetest spot). Also hearing, more effortless dynamics, and ‘fuller’ more life like mids and treble. Big difference from a modest increase in panel size.

The listening room (basement) has bad acoustics; low ceiling, cement and plaster walls, horrible echoes and standing waves. Better now with all the acoustic treatments. Still a little ‘boomy’ in the very center of the room, which we’re working around with seating and speaker placement.

I’m enjoying looking at all the beautiful systems you guys have! Nice group.

 

[GW1800]

Name: Don B.
Location: North East Ohio (NEO)
ML Model: Masterpiece Classic
Year Purchased: 2018
Mods: Room treatments
Associated Electronics: 1TB SSD (AIFF and DSD file storage), and Pioneer 300 CD player > Oppo Sonica DAC/Network Streamer > Parasound Halo Integrated Amp (240 watts into these speakers) > Martin Logan Masterpiece Classics, and two SVS SB-2000 subwoofers.

Comments: These are an upgrade from the ElectroMotion ESLs I purchased in 2016. Those in turn were an upgrade from the B&W Nautilus 805s we’ve had since 2004. After reading about the new classics, I wanted to hear if they could possibly sound any better than my beloved ESLs. I went up to our local dealer (Audio Visions in Strongsville). Big mistake! I walked out the proud owner of ‘neo’ classics. Once I heard them, they had to come home with me.
Improvements: Much tighter and deeper base, (currently the subs are off, while we’re moving the classics around to find the sweetest spot). Also hearing, more effortless dynamics, and ‘fuller’ more life like mids and treble. Big difference from a modest increase in panel size.

The listening room (basement) has bad acoustics; low ceiling, cement and plaster walls, horrible echoes and standing waves. Better now with all the acoustic treatments. Still a little ‘boomy’ in the very center of the room, which we’re working around with seating and speaker placement.

I’m enjoying looking at all the beautiful systems you guys have! Nice group.

View attachment 19607View attachment 19608View attachment 19609View attachment 19610View attachment 19611

Acoustic panels sure make a big difference. It’s a no brainer they make that much difference.

Also your Parasound integrated is a great amp. What I heard is it was one of the amps they used to test the new series of ML speakers. Beyond that I have heard this amp personally it’s great and you are using it wisely for just two channel. I assume you are using the built in DAC also? DSD sounds great! To bad Parasound is not going to offer a upgrade path to MQA though.

 

[twich54]

Hi Don, welcome to the fold and congrats on the new speakers !

While you're playing around with positioning try taking some of the rake away to make them more vertical. Let us know if this helps !

 

[NEO Classic]

Hi guys, thanks for the comments.

Michael – Hi, yes, we love the Halo Integrated, it is a fabulous amp (in sheep’s clothing). We have been using its DAC; it’s very good. But the new Oppo DAC/streamer has ESS’s new flagship DAC (Sabre ES9038PRO). We think it sounds a little better than the HINT’s (Sabre ES9018K2M), especially on CDs. So we’re putting everything through it and then into the HINT through balanced cables. You know, we figured going in, that an amp with an internal DAC, would eventually be overtaken by advancements in technology (including MQA). Oh well, it’s the nature of the hobby (we still have some cassettes and VHS tapes in a box somewhere). BTW you have two amazing systems! Wow!

Dave – Thanks for the tip. So many things to play around with as far as placement. They sound great placed almost anywhere. But it’s amazing how moving them a little this way or that, makes such big differences in the sound and soundstage. Love your system as well. Man, you guys have some nice systems!

 

[Brad225]

Don, Welcome to the group.

Dave is correct about the vertical panel position in relation to your seat. If you were to take a 90 degree angle from the face of your speaker to ears, my guess is you would be listening to the bottom of the panel. My feeling is ideally you want to be listening to the center of the panel. That way the sound is reaching you from the entire panel at the same time. Try it and see. Then adjust them to sound they way you prefer.

Brad

 

[twich54]

Don, one more thing ...........love the 'pajama tops' you have for the two of them !!

 

[JonFo]

Hi Don, nice system and congrats on the new Masterpiece series speakers. The mid-bass performance on this new line is impressive and a big step up as you noted.

I have a couple of suggestions regarding placement and treatments. First, congrats on having a good amount of treatment already, that all looks well deployed.
First, you might want to replace the 2' tall panel to the left of the left speaker with a 4' tall panel, as the reflections from the side wall (this would be the rear wave of the left, bouncing off the front, then bouncing off the side) are not damped and since you have an open side on the right of the room, this asymmetry is likely skewing the overall soundstage and the FR of the left.

Second, experiment with absorbing the rear wave of the ESL by using a 4' broadband absorber (with no reflective elements, some have limp-mass diaphragms to lower the range, but that is reflective) directly behind the ESL, or slightly to the side, the panel should 'aim' at the center of the panel.
This will initially sound radically different, and the 'spaciousness' might feel smaller, but the clarity of the midrange and highs will be greatly improved as the comb filtering is greatly reduced.

Finally, whenever you re-deploy the subs, I'd strongly recommend you place one in the middle front (where the pre is) and the other opposite centered on the rear wall (where the bike is). This is a well researched layout (and one I use) for balancing the LF room modes. Given how close the couch is to the rear wall, I'm pretty sure the new config will be much smoother.

 

[NEO Classic]

Thanks again everyone, for the comments and recommendations! It’s nice to have other enthusiasts lending tips and suggestions instead of having to ‘go it alone’. Another set of eyes is always welcome!

Brad – Dave’s suggestion about changing the panel angle is something that hadn’t occurred to me. I think I’m close to settling on position (further out than in the photo), 44” from front wall, 88” center to center, and toed in per flashlight method. I'm going to play with vertical now. Currently they are leaning back about 5 degrees. I’ll jack them up to 0, then back a degree at a time. I’ll let you guys know where they end up.

Joathan – good suggestions. I think your suggestion on placing the subs mid wall front and back may be the solution to the standing wave problem in the center of the room. It will take about 40’ of cable to get to the back wall, (that’s what's been holding me back from trying it). But, I’m going to give it a try, (I’ll let you know how it goes). In the past I tried 3 full panels placed on the left wall, actually pushed the soundstage too far right of center. With the half panel, it was better centered. That was with my old ESLs. So, I tried again this morning with the new speakers. It had the same effect. I’ve also had full panels on the front wall with the ESLs (behind the speakers). Sounded good with the ESLs, but not so much with the new Classics, so I moved them to the rear wall horizontally on the floor. You mentioned “limp-mass diaphragms”. Can you suggest a source? All my panels are diffusers (heavyweight rockwool 3” or 6” thick (except the corner traps which pretty much fill the corners). I have wanted to play around with limp-mass material, but have not found a good description of what the material was made of, or where to get some.

Dave – I read somewhere that the panels would last longer if not pushed to their limits, and covered when not in use. The covers that come with them are a real pain to put on. So, enter the ‘pajama tops’ :ROFL:, easy on, easy off. Sort of led to the whole Japanese motif.

 

[twich54]

Don, regarding 'panel life' .............

other than a clean environment to start with a good cleaning once a month was my procedure. I always used a natural (horse hair) brush on my vacuum for cleaning. The reasoning is to minimize any static build up (dust attraction), so be sure you keep this in mind with respect to your 'pajama tops' !!

 

[NEO Classic]

So, the panels started off at about a 5 degree angle. I couldn't get them completely vertical by adjusting the feet. Could get them to 1.5 degrees; the locations were locked in and the sound was very crisp, but depth was gone. The soundstage was 2 dimensional and lifeless, and the perspective was like sitting in the balcony looking down at the stage. Started going back one turn of the feet at a time. At about 3.5 degrees BAM! Everything came together. Beautiful lifelike presentation. Perspective was straight ahead of me and in the right proportions (about 10th row center). Went to 4 degrees, became ‘fuzzy’ both sound and soundstage. So back to 3.5 degrees; perfect! I’m putting the spikes down! Thanks again for the tips and advice!

 

[NEO Classic]

SO...update to the system. My daughter showed an interest in the B&W 805s so I figured she would need the HINT to power them! Enter the A21 and P5. The upgrade ‘bug’ is insidious! I think she’s caught it too; she already bought a new turntable. And so it goes...

 

[twich54]

Don, thanks for the update. Glad to see that you experimented with rake angle and got it dialed in ! Nice to see the 'gene pool' marches on !

 

[GW1800]

View attachment 19688

SO...update to the system. My daughter showed an interest in the B&W 805s so I figured she would need the HINT to power them! Enter the A21 and P5. The upgrade ‘bug’ is insidious! I think she’s caught it too; she already bought a new turntable. And so it goes...

Just to add fuel to you update "bug". Move up to the Parasound JC1's mono's. Those amps will take those speakers to a whole new level. Food for thought.

 

[tsmooth]

Currently have SVS PB12-NSD in ML system. I am thinking about dual subs in the new build, something along the lines of what you have. How do you like them / have you had other setups / would you buy them again? Thanks.

 

[NEO Classic]

Currently have SVS PB12-NSD in ML system. I am thinking about dual subs in the new build, something along the lines of what you have. How do you like them / have you had other setups / would you buy them again? Thanks.

Hi tsmooth - Yes, I would buy them again in a heartbeat. I have had other setups in the past: with my B&W 805s I had a Sunfire for many years. It filled in the lowest octave nicely, but the room had a lot of standing wave problems (one spot booming base, one foot away no base at all). The 2 SVSs reduced this problem. I’ve tried several placements (close in, side walls, front corners, one front one opposite back). I’ve read that 4 is the best for negating room issues, but 2 is my cost effective limit (not to mention WAF issues).

 

[tsmooth]

Sealed over ported? Our theater will likely be 50/50 split between dedicated listening and family movie nights.

 

[NEO Classic]

Sealed over ported? Our theater will likely be 50/50 split between dedicated listening and family movie nights.

My home theater is in a different room. My listening room is set up for music only. I prefer the sealed subs for music. I think they sound 'tighter' and more 'musical'. BUT they will not move the amount of air required for explosions and other special effects in movies. If I were setting up a combination music/theater room, I would go with ported (for the better movie effects performance).

Here is a good discussion on ported vs sealed subs.
https://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/75367747-sealed-vs-ported

 

[tsmooth]

Thanks. The new theater will be open to a bar area in the back and will have about 1000 sq feet, about 700 of that in theater “zone”. I will likely need two ported subs, maybe “hide” the PB-2000s in the front corners, to check as many boxes as possible (effect, SAF, sound quality). What do you have for your theater?

 

[TDIMike]

Awesome thread. I'm using a P5/A21 with my M40s. Definitely see a JC2 and some ESLs (possibly Classics or Impressions) in my future.

 

[NEO Classic]

Awesome thread. I'm using a P5/A21 with my M40s. Definitely see a JC2 and some ESLs (possibly Classics or Impressions) in my future.

The P5/A21 is an awesome match for Martin Logan speakers! The A21 has more than enough clean power to drive the Classic ESL9s, it’s a perfect match! The larger M/Ls all use internal class D amps to drive the lower mid range and bass speakers. Because the lower mid range speakers reach up to around 400hz, I like driving them with the same high quality, high power amp; with the same sonic signature. Having said that; with the larger M/Ls the A21 is more than enough to drive just the panels. The JC2 is without a doubt a better pre, but lacks some of the features I use (dual sub outputs). BTW take a look at the new JC5!!!. I think they will come out with a new matching pre soon.