Summits in 3 weeks - now . . . a new power amp or pre amp?

[music again]

I will be receiving a new pair of Summits in 2 to 3 weeks.

Thus far I have:

1. Ordered a pair of Jason's 2.5' spikes.

I currently have a pair of Vantages and know from my limited experience with them that raising the panel to near straight up can make a huge difference in locking the image in, for me anyway.

2. I am looking for an electrician to install one, and possibly two, dedicated 20 amp lines behind my Salamander (Synergy) unit, to power my equipment.

3. I will probably order one or two PS Audio Power Port duplex outlets for the dedicated lines.

4. I am still researching power conditioner/regeneraters/surge protectors, etc. etc.. I probably will hold off here until I think I reasonably understand all of it, and what I think is real versus hype.

5. I have subscribed to the ML user group of course :bowdown: , The Absolute Sound, Stereophile and a couple of the HT magazines. Not sure why as I have decided I'm going to build the best 2 channel system I can afford, and add HT later . . . . probably a lot later! I have the Music Direct catalog and the 2007 Stereophile Buyer's Guide, which helps when I need to know how much a component costs, since most manufactures don't put prices on their web sites! I search the ML site nearly every day for ideas, and have even chatted/emailed with a couple members, who have been very helpful. Thank you Gordon Gray! Jason, Joey and Ngarch have been very helpful as well.

OK, I'll finally get to my question . . . knowing that I want to build a 2 channel system, and I will have the Summits soon . . . and having not yet decided which brands I will buy (although I have "narrowed" it down to a dozen or so (ARC, BAT, Cary, CJ, Pass Labs, Classe', Mcintosh - of which my dealer carries 6 of these mfgs.) . . . or if it be tubes or SS, or a combination of the two . . .

What should I get first: a pre amp or a power amp? Is it a "good" idea to match pre/power amps from the same manufacturer?


I will only be able to buy one of these now, and the other a year or two down the road. I may borrow/lease or buy a cheap alternative of the "other" component to get by in the mean time. Of course, once I narrow my choices down, I'll be back with some additional questions and opinions.

Thanks!

JM

 

[MOON]

Music Again,

Congradulations on the new speakers coming.Have you considered buying the amp and pre used off of www.audiogon.com This way , perhaps you could afford both units at once instead of buying new. Just thought I would through that option out there, it's worth considering

Hate to sound like a broken record but the Blue Circle 68 pc's and the Founadtion research LC 1 powercords have built in conditioners and work excellent with loagns, vast difference over the stock logan pc

It seems like the vast majority on this site use tubed pre and ss amp. I haven't had the pleasure of trying a tubed pre yet, but look forward to that day.

 

[music again]

Music Again,

Have you considered buying the amp and pre used off of www.audiogon.com This way , perhaps you could afford both units at once instead of buying new. Just thought I would through that option out there, it's worth considering QUOTE]

I have checked out the audiogon site, but am leary of spending thousands on used equipment from someone I don't know. I love eBay and I've had a few transactions in the $300 range, but above that is kind of scary. If the person was within driving distance I would consider it, being able to check out the equipment first hand.

Thanks for the response!

JM

 

[David Matz]

Get a great cd player instead

I will be receiving a new pair of Summits in 2 to 3 weeks.

What should I get first: a pre amp or a power amp? Is it a "good" idea to match pre/power amps from the same manufacturer?


I will only be able to buy one of these now, and the other a year or two down the road.
Thanks!

JM

Forget the power upgrades, the amp and the preamp for now. The source is what matters most after the speakers.

Get a "value" power amp, something good enough to drive your Summits. Bryston is one great choice, but there are many others. Then spend as much as you can on a cd player. If you got the cash, get the Ayre C5xe. I would take the Ayre and a $200 mid-fi preamp or a 20 year old hi-fi preamp over a lesser source and a more modern hi-fi preamp. I have listened to dozens of combinations, but try for yourself. It's amazing how many people will tell you to get a fancy preamp when your source is $149 cd player.

Once you are driving the Summits, all upgrades after the Ayre source will be fairly incremental, with the preamp being second most important, and the power/ cables being last.

 

[MOON]

David, good point. Yes it is imparative to get the very best source you can possibly afford , or not afford for that matter. Just a little humor.

I find the people in the audio community quite honest and never have had a problem.I really think you could acheive the end results much sooner this way.

 

[music again]

NAD - Are you serious?

I would take the Ayre and a $200 mid-fi preamp or a 20 year old hi-fi preamp over a lesser source and a more modern hi-fi preamp. QUOTE]


David,

I have some aging Hafler equipment (DH-200 100 watt power amp which was factory built, and a DH-110 preamp which was built by a friend of mine from a kit). They are showing their age mechanically, especially the pre amp. Probably an easy fix with some detox spray to clean things up. Also, I don't want to damage the new Summits with old equipment, if that's possible.

I'd really like to replace them both ASAP. I do have a couple of options here.

I have a $500 "debit card" to Tweeters through work. They have Krell and Cambridge audio. The 840C CD player got a good review and is only around $1,400. I was going to do that.

OR, I could trade someone for the $500, take that cash and buy
the NAD C272 (150 watt power amp) and the NAD C162 preamp, both for around $1,000! This pair made the The Absolute Sound 2007 Editor's Choice award, and I have seen a lot of other good press on them. I would bet I would be the only NAD equipment ownder on the ML club site! Ouch! That would take care of replacing the aging Hafler equipment for now. THEN I could look for a CD player, after saving up some more cash, and selling off my other stuff on Ebay!

I also have a Hafler DH100 pre amp which was factory built and I might feel better with, but it doesn't sound as good as the DH-110. I also have a Rega Planer 3 turntable, with an SME Series III tone arm, with Dynavector cartidge. Also a Marcof PPA-1 pre-pre amp. At least that's what we used to call it! I don't think the Dynavector is a MC though, I can't remember. I used to use a MC cartidge, awhile back! Do I want to keep this beautiful vinyl gear? probably not. I have about 60 to 70 albums, but not the time/energy/expertice to maintain a turntable again. That will all probably go as well. Cash is king in this hobby!!


JM

 

[Joey_V]

I heard the 840c is a great CDP... something I'm also interested in since I can't go with something as expensive as the Ayre c5xe....

 

[music again]

Cary SLP-03

I heard the 840c is a great CDP... something I'm also interested in since I can't go with something as expensive as the Ayre c5xe....

Joey,

I see you have a Cary tube amp.

My dealer is a Cary dealer and I was thinking of looking at the SLP-03 pre amp. It does have tubes, in an enclosed modern looking case ($2,500 list). of course the SLP-05 would be nice, but at $7,500 . . . ! Have you heard the SLP-03?

JM

 

[David Matz]

Cash is king in this hobby!!


JM

This is exactly my point. Most of us have limited resources and have to make tradeoffs. I think your money will go further if you get a great source rather than spend the big money on the amp. Once you get something decent to drive the Summits, the cd player will make the most difference, then the preamp, then the amp, then the power.

Do you have a problem with used equipment? You can pick up a used Ayre Cx7e for $2K or so (Stereophile Class A). You can pick up a Bryston amp (perennial Stereophile Class B) for approx. $1200 used.

I have not heard the Cambridge player yet, but I am leery of the review. It probably is very good. But the guy who reviewed it has a $100K system. His interconnects undoubtedly cost more than the CD player. Any grain or faults is probably smoothed out. Listen to it and compare it yourself of course, but I think you may be able to do better for a bit more $.

You will have some of the most amazing speakers in the history of the world. Why not feed them with something great? It all starts with the source.

 

[Joey_V]

This is exactly my point. Most of us have limited resources and have to make tradeoffs. I think your money will go further if you get a great source rather than spend the big money on the amp. Once you get something decent to drive the Summits, the cd player will make the most difference, then the preamp, then the amp, then the power.

You listen to Dave here... he's right.

With a limited cash flow, source is something one must not overlook.

 

[Joey_V]

Joey,

I see you have a Cary tube amp.

My dealer is a Cary dealer and I was thinking of looking at the SLP-03 pre amp. It does have tubes, in an enclosed modern looking case ($2,500 list). of course the SLP-05 would be nice, but at $7,500 . . . ! Have you heard the SLP-03?

JM

Have not heard the 03.... sorry. Though I've been wanting the 05 since it came out. Problem is, I'd rather get a better source...



Joey

 

[jtwrace]

I own the BC-68 power cords. Personally, I don't think they do that much. If you want to buy them I will sell them.

 

[tonyc]

Frankly, I'd wait till the Summits break in before I made significant component changes. You need to really know what you are getting and you need to avoid making expensive mistakes based upon auditioning equipment on unbroken in speakers or by buying without listening!

 

[Joey_V]

Frankly, I'd wait till the Summits break in before I made significant component changes. You need to really know what you are getting and you need to avoid making expensive mistakes based upon auditioning equipment on unbroken in speakers or by buying without listening!

This is true.... plus, this will allow you to research some more and save more for an even... ahem... BIGGER purchase.

:cheers: :eek1:

 

[jjay]

Whatever you decide to purchase, I would suggest that you wait to get exactly what you really want unless you want to be like me and spend alot of money again. If the Summits are like the Vantage speakers that I own, they will reveal any weakness in the equipment chain. I should have gone with McIntosh, Audio Research, Cary, etc or whatever sounds best to you to begin with.
Good Luck.
Jim

 

[patlad]

Music Again,

Congratulation on your new pair of Summit.

The path to upgrade your source and electronic will be quite difficult, especially if you're limited on the budget. This kind of speakers requires very good quality electronic and source if you want to get the most they can offer.
The main problem you may face is the speakers will reveal the weakness of some of the components in your system. For example if you add a good quality source in your system, your amplifier section may not make justice to it. Therefore you are not going to exploit the source at it's maximum.
Changing the pre-amplifier will probably help to reveal the weak side of the source. Same for the amplifier.
At the end of the day you may end up by getting something just better than you actually have. So the real question here is: Does the overall improvement justify the investment?
Personnaly I would have kept the Vantages and upgraded the electronic and source before moving up to the Summits. IMHO.
Now I know that we all have to start somewhere and it's never an easy task. I think in your case I would start with a good amp as it is in general a long term investment, either tube or SS. In general tube amps are good for ML but you need to get a quite good one, especially on the output transformer. I personally prefer good SS amps for their dynamics but this is really a question of taste.
Good luck on this difficult track.
Happy listening.

Patrick

 

[kcl]

... This kind of speakers requires very good quality electronic and source if you want to get the most they can offer. The main problem you may face is the speakers will reveal the weakness of some of the components in your system.

Absolutely! I tell folks that the main issue I've had with upgrading to better speakers is that they end up acting like a big magnifier on the rest of your system. Amps, cables, preamps, power, sources (particularly sources) and the like that you thought were ok? All of a sudden they're not. You might not even believe it to start with (I know I didn't), but you start trying better intermediate components and WOW, what a difference they make.

And you know what's even worse? Any single component that's lacking pulls down the entire system! Yes, you're correct. That means with really good speakers like your Summits, incremental changes to the system's components won't have their full effect until they're all changed. (Its kind of like when your wife, or at least mine, buys an expensive new blouse. Its never just that. What's also needed are matching earrings, skirt and/or pants, shoes, probably a new hairdo, and, and, ... you get the idea. By the way, if your wife or significant other is like this, I strongly suggest you never complain about this to her. In my experience, all she has to do is say something like "and how much did that amp thingy cost?", and you're toast. )

With all of that said, I strongly recommend that you wait until your Summits are broken in to start looking at changes (at least a couple of hundred hours, and some say as much as five hundred). I suggest that you also wait until you've become accustomed to this new, higher level of sound that you're achieving. I contend that you cannot appreciate the full differences you'll hear when changing components until then.

 

[music again]

(Its kind of like when your wife, or at least mine, buys an expensive new blouse. Its never just that. What's also needed are matching earrings, skirt and/or pants, shoes, probably a new hairdo, and, and, ... you get the idea. By the way, if your wife or significant other is like this, I strongly suggest you never complain about this to her. In my experience, all she has to do is say something like "and how much did that amp thingy cost?", and you're toast. )

It is my wife's idea to go with the Summits! Oddly enough we got two pair of defective Vantages, plus she just doesn't like the Descent i sitting in the room. Those are the two reasons for the upgrade. At least I'm starting out with the best speakers I can afford, and so the elctronics I go with, will be specifically for them.

With all of that said, I strongly recommend that you wait until your Summits are broken in to start looking at changes (at least a couple of hundred hours, and some say as much as five hundred). I suggest that you also wait until you've become accustomed to this new, higher level of sound that you're achieving. I contend that you cannot appreciate the full differences you'll hear when changing components until then.

Is it possible for my old equipment to damage the Summits?
Remember it's 1980's Hafler: DH-200 Power amp (100 watts) and DH-110 pre amp. Any electrical anomolies that could cause issues?

Thanks JM

 

[jtwrace]

What was defective on the ML Vantages?

 

[Joey_V]

What was defective on the ML Vantages?

Two times his Vantages were defective... something about the panels themselves...