Subwoofer placement - anyone in the middle?

[music again]

I have a brand new pair of Vantages and a Descent i sub that just arrived Friday! . I also purchased a 21" high twin Salamander "Synergy" cabinet. My original thought was to place the sub in the corner and in the future, a center channel on top of the Synergy cabinet, and mount a Samsung 46" flat screen on the wall, just above the center channel. Fitting all the gear in the twin will be a challenge, BUT, just for fun I moved the Descent i directly in front of the cabinet, in between the speakers, and really liked what I heard! The bass is much tighter and very present now, yet still integrating well with the panels, without even being on the same plane as the Vantages, because I didn't have the time to move the cabinet out of the way.

The speakers are currently 60" apart, measured from the INSIDE of the bottom cabinets. This certainly forces one to go back to the drawing board as far as equipment/furniture set up is concerned.

Anyone place their sub in between the speakers, and the equipment off to the right or left? Maybe if the speakers were farther apart I could even get a couple of lower cabinets on either side of the sub, in between the speakers. Then the issue of where the center channel will go!

Thoughts?

 

[Diamonds]

In my opinion the sub is always best in the middle. If not it becomes unbalanced.

 

[risabet]

In my opinion the sub is always best in the middle. If not it becomes unbalanced.

I have to disagree. If the sound is unbalanced then your sub is xd-over to high IME. Setting the sub off to one side will load the room asymmetrically and minimize the generation of standing waves/room resonances. A center placement, particularly in a symmetrically set up room, will excite all the room nodes to their maximum extent.

I always place my subs for the smoothest output I can get. That position has always been off to one side of center, sometimes quite far from the center.

 

[bober]

It will exite all the room nodes but if those room nodes are treated it can be the best possible position for the subwoofer. I have found in my setup (non ML for now) that the subwoofer in the middle of the two speakers is a great improvement over the off to the side thing.

The goal for me is to have the best possible sounding system. Although near a corner is where a sub (on its own) may sound best, it may not make the entire system sound its best. System synergy is most important and I find placing the sub in the middle of the two mains gives the most balanced, realistic sound possible. These conclusions are drawn from my system at home in my bedroom and at work in my demo rooms.

 

[Brian_74]

Just a newbie here so my opinion may not count for much.:bowdown: +1 to Risabet's reasoning. The sub should disappear in the room. You should not be able to discern a direction to the low frequency content. Thus if it sounds unbalanced, you are discerning direction and something is off--most likely too much high frequency content.

It sounds (no pun intended) like what's really going on is you changed the placement and thereby altered the resonant frequencies/room response and probably attenuated some boominess you may have heard with the sub on the side. Try playing with the crossover and level control knobs on the Descent. It's got pretty good refinement and you should be able to obtain a nice tight sound with it off to the side.

 

[JonFo]

My recommendation for a single sub is the middle as well, although depending on room layout, there might be other options that might be better.

A corner placement engages more room modes than center positioning does due to the interactions of three room boundaries vs two for a center placement.

I went through a lot of research, calculations and experimentation with placements before I cut a hole in my floor for my infinite baffle sub. It’s in the middle, front of the room.

Are there room modes with that location? Of course, as they are in pretty much any placement, but as noted above, it’s pretty easy to predict and treat those modes, plus, they are less severe than a corner placement.

Whether a sub is ‘localizable’ is a different, yet related, animal, and is indeed driven by how high the crossover is set. But I would also argue that if a sub that’s crossed over at 80Hz is energizing a room mode at 160Hz, then the harmonics (and fundamentals) at 160Hz will make the sub more ‘localizable’ as these mid-bass frequencies are indeed a bit more position sensitive.

 

[C.A.P]

With my home theater system , my sub can be localized at times but it will pressurize the room best for DTS movies like U-571 depth charge scene when in the corner !

 

[Audioseduction]

I have to disagree. If the sound is unbalanced then your sub is xd-over to high IME. Setting the sub off to one side will load the room asymmetrically and minimize the generation of standing waves/room resonances. A center placement, particularly in a symmetrically set up room, will excite all the room nodes to their maximum extent.

I always place my subs for the smoothest output I can get. That position has always been off to one side of center, sometimes quite far from the center.

I concure totaly! What he says I experiance as well! :music:

 

[twich54]

I concur with risabet as well, but remember each room has it's own accoustic signature that will require ones individual experimentation..... translation...... what's right for me might not be right for you !!

On another thought , is it a fair assumption you have a mighty narrow listening room, thus the rather small distance, 60" between your Vanatge's ???

 

[nsgarch]

With a ML Depth or Descent

you can place the sub smack dab between the speakers without agonizing over room nodes because of their omnidirectional radiation pattern (the nodes have a difficult time forming OR they tend to cancel, depending on your point of view). When placed in this position, the phase should be set to 90 degrees which is halfway between the phase of the panels' front and rear wave (and as recommended by ML, BTW). With Vantage's and Summit's excellent LF capability, you may need to reduce their woofer output slightly, especially the 25Hz level on the Summits. In either case though, the sub should be set to start rolling off at 30 or 35 Hz, no higher. Click on my system link for pics and tips.

 

[twich54]

Neil, Good point !!

 

[music again]

Additional information on room - more questions

I concur with risabet as well, but remember each room has it's own accoustic signature that will require ones individual experimentation..... translation...... what's right for me might not be right for you !!

On another thought , is it a fair assumption you have a mighty narrow listening room, thus the rather small distance, 60" between your Vanatge's ???

My room size is 15 x 19 with the speakers on the long wall, about in the middle on the long wall. Now I should add that my foyer is attached to the long side truly making the room 15 x 29. The ceiling is basically 11 feet high, except where the sub is it slants from 8 feet to the 11 feet high, on a 10 foot long slope. The sub is in the corner, farthest away from where the foyer is. It's about 2.5 feet away from both corner walls.

I have the cross over set to 35Hz, with the phase set to 90. Everything else is flat at zero, including the Vantages. I do feel that the sub integrated well, but in the center it just seems to have more punch and authority. I had another thread going regarding two Depth i's versus one Decent i, and the one Descent I seemed to win out. It was said to go lower and that two Depth i's would still not go as low as a Descent i. Seems to make sense. NSGARCH had some good points on that one, as he does on most!

I need to make a descision quickly as my dealer is replacing my new Descent i and while they were at my home, we got to talking about two Depth i's versus one Descent i. Then there's the placement issue. I bought the twin Synergy unit and if I put the sub in the center that messes that up. Of course I could put the sub in center, "eventually" get mono blocks on either side of the sub, then the main speakers and run longer interconnects to the side and use the Synergy unit there. I'm dealing with the WAF here, and she wants everything hidden! I'm going back to look at the member system pics for more ideas. If I get a center channel, how do I keep it in line with the mains with the sub in the center? So many questions.

One last thought as the manual gives very litlle DETAIL and it seems like there's a different answer for every person you talk to . . . . just how do you use all those setting knobs on the Descent i? 25hz, 50hz, phase? Cross over makes sense to me and is easy to detect when changed, but phase and 25/50, not so. Setting up a sub seems more like an art than a science.

Any additional comments are welcome!

 

[music again]

Descent i

you can place the sub smack dab between the speakers without agonizing over room nodes because of their omnidirectional radiation pattern (the nodes have a difficult time forming OR they tend to cancel, depending on your point of view). When placed in this position, the phase should be set to 90 degrees which is halfway between the phase of the panels' front and rear wave (and as recommended by ML, BTW). With Vantage's and Summit's excellent LF capability, you may need to reduce their woofer output slightly, especially the 25Hz level on the Summits. In either case though, the sub should be set to start rolling off at 30 or 35 Hz, no higher. Click on my system link for pics and tips.

Do you feel that the Descent i is a good match for the Vantages?
I know you are sold on the Depth i. The Summits seem to have a great base built in, so why did ML come out with the Descent i, if the Depth works so well? Future CLX? Or should integrate well with Summits and Vantages for 2 channel, or is it for HT more than 2 channel?

Not to start the "fast" sub thing again, but it seems to integrate well in my room, and I'm thinking it's a matter of set up rather for room anomolies, rather than other issues. It just seems to sound "better" in the center.

I need to respond to my dealer next week if I'm keeping the Descent i, or going with the Depth i. He even mentioned the JL Fathom 113, which he has in his system! I'd prefer to stay with the ML sub though. I do 95% music and 5% movies, but am considering HT for the future with every purchase descision I make. The dealer's asking ML as well, giving them all of my room dimensions and such.

Thanks for your input.

 

[nsgarch]

RE: Descent vs. Depth

MusicAgain, first of all your room including the foyer would probably require two Depths. One Descent should do it though, and since you will use it for HT might do a bit more justice to those low frequency effects! (i.e. - move more air.)

It's my understanding that the "i" models have extra settings to match with the (not yet introduced) super Summit, and the CLX. I couldn't use a Depth i because of the top-mounted controls. The Descent i also now has a separate amp for each woofer, which can only be better for woofer control.

Phase setting -- these suggestions relate only to dipole main speakers: If the sub is (anywhere) forward of the mains more than 6 feet, it will probably sound best with phase set to 0 degrees; anywhere behind the mains more than 6 feet, 180 degrees. Positioned even with the mains, (including even-but-to-one-side), 90 degrees. If the sub is even with the mains, set to 90 degrees, and things are too boomy, or bloated, try setting the sub to 270 degrees. This puts the sub out of phase with both the front and the back of the panels and may flatten out the overall response (never needed to do that muhself )

If you do get a Descent or and original Depth, you could set a center channel like a Stage or Cinnamon right on top of it and it will be in perfect phase with the sub set at 90 degrees.

Personally I'd recommend putting the front end stuff to one side and even with the main listening position. Besides being more convenient, I've always felt it destroys some of the magic (especially so with HT) when someone is moving around between the speakers and/or in front of the screen

Neil

 

[music again]

sub phase

Positioned even with the mains, (including even-but-to-one-side), 90 degrees. If the sub is even with the mains, set to 90 degrees, and things are too boomy, or bloated, try setting the sub to 270 degrees. This puts the sub out of phase with both the front and the back of the panels and may flatten out the overall response (never needed to do that muhself )

If you do get a Descent or and original Depth, you could set a center channel like a Stage or Cinnamon right on top of it and it will be in perfect phase with the sub set at 90 degrees.

Personally I'd recommend putting the front end stuff to one side and even with the main listening position. Besides being more convenient, I've always felt it destroys some of the magic (especially so with HT) when someone is moving around between the speakers and/or in front of the screen
------------------------------------------------------

Neil,

Thanks for the reply. I do like the sound of the Descent i and will most likely keep it in favor of the Depth i. You are right in that the controls on the top inhibit your options. When I had the old Descent in my home for demo, I complained about having to get red faced constantly bending over to reach the controls on the front. Now I kinda prefer them there! The Decent i sits 20" high without the spikes added. My cabinet is 22 inches high with the wheels, which can be removed to lower it an inch or two. The plan was to put the Stage on top of the cabinet, and mount the TV on the wall. All total, that would put the bottom of the TV 33" to 35" inches high. If I go any higher, I'd be worshipping the thing and getting a stiff neck! of course this makes it near impossible to put the sub in the middle, but if that's the best poition, it's back to the drawing board, trying to find a way to get that center channel in the center lined up with the mains, along with the sub. I do like the idea of the electronics off to the side for sure.

Is it your experience been (based on my room size) that the sub is best in the corner, which would only be about 4 feet from the right speaker, a foot or two from the speaker, or in the center? If in the "center" of the mains, would it be OK to have it more to one side, and possibly an amp on a stand, or a single cabinet to the left inside and sub to the right inside? Would the cabinet interfere with the side firing woofer?

My goal is to get the best sound obviously, and then work around the furniture, and WAF issues. At 105 pounds for the sub, plus the cabinet with the TV on it, moving it around hasn't been all that easy. Of course doing it when no one is home with a friend to assist is best!

Thanks again!

JM

 

[nsgarch]

Best layout

would be with the front end/sources to the side (wives actually prefer that because all that gear isn't staring at you when you walk into the room.) Sub in the center. With sub + Vantages out at least 5 ft. from the wall behind; and the Vantages' outer edge(s) 4 ft from each sidewall.

The best place for the Stage actually would be wall-mounted above the screen, which would lower the screen to a comforable height and locate the dialog right at the screen.

If you have one stereo amp, you can set it right below the screen and run a pair of balanced interconnects to the Descent (if the preamp has balanced main outputs, or RCA's if it doesn't) and then run a pair of single ended interconnects from the Descent to the main amp right behind. Then, when you have the money, you could get annother pair of balanced interconnects to run directly to the amp (or monoblocks) so that the Descent and the main amp(s) could be driven separately, which is a bit more desireable.

Basically, it will mean you have to invest in some long runs of decent interconnect. It's the old story, if you wanna play, you gotta pay :banghead: