subs integration with either passive and active woofers?

[jmstpierre]

i just noticed a sub thread which made me right this one.
I am just wondering if it s easier to blend/integrate sub(s) with either a ML speaker that has a passive woofer or one that has a active woofer (either manually or by room correction software), or does it not make any difference at all and comes down to patience..
sincerely yours
froggy

 

[Hocky]

It really shouldn't make a difference - it is all about the sub set up: proper placement, phase configuration, and EQ to smooth everything out.

 

[JonFo]

No much difference agreed. It's all in the setup and how the front-end does the crossovers.

If using a pre-pro or receiver with bass management, just set the mains to 'small' or cross over at 60Hz or 80Hz.

Also know this: using two or more subs will give much better in-room integration, but they must be placed correctly, typically asymmetrically along front and side walls. Look for threads on sub setups for the detailed recommendations.

 

[jmstpierre]

Hi Guys,
thanks for the replies. the reason i ask is that although m happy with my theos i already have the urge to upgrade and gp for the ethos and afraid that the ethos may be a bit harder to blend in.
i will definately get 2 subs but i don t think i ll get ML subs as a bit too pricey for me, may be a single one but definately can t afford 2. i can t even afford to go back to my dealer/installer for a lay out of where to best place to subs as i ve spent the last of my money on room accoustics (viccoustics) . that s where you guys come in for some advice.
regards
froggy

 

[edwinr]

jmstpierre, the Ethos is a great speaker, but I would think carefully before you 'upgrade'. I went through the same process, thinking the Ethos would be a lot better. It isn't. It just a bit different in the way it reproduces the bass, which is a bit more extended and punchy with the Ethos. I prefer the natural bass of the Theos, which seems less colored or processed. Driven by a suitable amplifier and supplemented by a really good sub, I reckon the Theos is a more flexible option for most people who want to integrate or tune a sub to match the speakers.

There are few subs that can keep up with the REL subs for playing bass tunes. I think part of this reason is because REL recommend people connect their subs from the amplifier's high level speaker outputs which is connected directly to the sub. The sub receives the same signal as the speakers and this is what I believe makes it easier to integrate with the main speakers. As I suggested above, I reckon a passive woofer is the way to go for best integration if the choice is between the Theos and the Ethos.

 

[guido]

I second the recommendation of REL for subwoofers. I have a modest REL T1, which works very well with my SL3s in a 2.1 system, all corrected for room modes by a DSPeaker AntiMode Dual Core. But be prepared for a lot of fine tuning of the sub's crossover and volume. IMO, DRC of the bass region is essential to achieve tuneful bass without boominess and integrate well with any full range main speakers.

Best of luck!

Guido.

 

[peacefulcargo]

I have had Rels, Depthi's and Wilson Benesch Torus in pairs. The most musical were the older Rels, I have not tried the newer versions.

 

[MOON]

I found when I had 1 sub, a Depth, it sounded best placed in the center between my speakers.I now run 2 depth i's that are close to a 1/3rd of the way down the side wall.I really like the depth i's. You can always buy 1 sub now nd add the other when funds allow.

 

[edwinr]

MOON, have you tried your subs in the corners?

 

[guido]

I found when I had 1 sub, a Depth, it sounded best placed in the center between my speakers.I now run 2 depth i's that are close to a 1/3rd of the way down the side wall.I really like the depth i's. You can always buy 1 sub now nd add the other when funds allow.

My REL also works best centered between the main speakers, and a couple of feet behind them.

Guido F.

 

[jmstpierre]

Hi guys,
sorry for late reply, been away with family for the week end.
thanks for all your advice and i think i ll keep the theos for a while as i could not really justifie the price difference considering there s not much of a massive improvment.
I would really love your advice on sub(s) and placement. i have read many post on here and not sure if m more confused or decided.
i have spent over $4000 on room accoustics (please see my room report) and decided to go the premium range as need to please the wife decoration.
the room is fairly large at 6550mm long by 5000mm wide and 3000mm ceiling.I am not looking for HT reference bass as this in my family room and already have a dedicated HT room, but more something to fill in the bass lacking from theos and enjoy a bit of lower end on both music and movies.I guess more like an all rounder situation.
The tricky part is that the sub needs to be either WAF ready or if 2 be able to be concealed where only the front face is visible. if i go for one sub it can be place behing the left hand side speaker as she won t mind as long as it not higher and bigger that the theos.
Otherwise if i go 2 subs(smaller) they can only be placed between the speaker in a wall cove.Does that make sense.? It may not be the best location but m stuck with what i have, it s either 2 in a wall cove or one in the corner.
In your valued experience, what is the best scenario for me.
sincerely yours
froggy

 

[MOON]

Hi Edwin,
I did try the subs in the corners and much prefer the 1/3 down the side walls.I have ASC tube traps 16x78 in all 4 corners.

Jumstpierre- The Martin Logan Depth i sub is quite bit smller than the descent i and comes in many diffrent finishes.I find them to have a high degree of waf.Perhaps you could show your wife the custom finishes on the ML site.I find the ML subs look more appealing than a square box and think your wife would also.I ordered the stainless steel covers for over the controls on my depth i's which really dress it up.

 

[Nielsen]

About placement of subwoofers, it vital you experiment yourself, many times advice does fit your room. Normally, for most room gain you place the sub in a front corner with the driver facing into the room (so the driver aligns with the front wall). Normally you tend to put the sub so that the driver faces into the room, looking into the direction of the back wall.
However, like you have discovered, sometimes the best sound is when the sub is placed somewhere along the front wall, and not all the way into a corner. I have a very difficult romm, with an open entrance area, open kitchen etc., so I had the sub placed in a corner behind the left speaker for some time. This because it then was hidden by a table and you wouldnt see it, to please the wife. The other day I decided to experiment and moved it, to a spot 1/3 along the front wall, next to the right speaker, and according to measurements I have the same gain, but the sound is totally different, I now clearly hear any bass note and its a totally new experience, before I just had bass, now I have music.
jmstpierre, you have to be very careful about making you mind up as to where the subwoofers you buy should be placed, you cannot do that. You could end up with a feeling that you wasted money and it wasnt worth it. You can get truly remarkable results from even small subwoofers, but only if they are correctly placed in the room. Subwoofers with roomcorrection, like XTZ and Velodyne might help a lot, but its not really a compensation for poor placement.
In your big room I would recommend two cheaper subwoofers instead of one expensive.
http://www.xtzsound.com/en/products/measurements/room-analyzer-ii-pro
http://www.xtzsound.com/en/products/subwoofers/99w12-18-ice-high-glossy
http://rel.net/products/serie-r/r-528/

 

[jmstpierre]

Hi Nielsen.
thanks for your reply,links and advice. unfortunately for me there are no XTZ dealers here in brisbane. it seems the decision on sub(s) is not going to be an eas one. I have to work within the constraints i have.I already have a man cave, where i went a bit crazy(135inch accoustic screen with full focal set up, 4 subs and aslo accoustic treated but not with the premium range as does not need to be pleasant to the eye, just perfom..) and the wife had no input on what when in, but the family room is another issue. I am already streching it a little by having the ML theos and the room accoustically treated(luckily VICOUSTICS premium product are quite "fresh" and designer looking so she doesn t mind too much but i can t really have subs where they would be optimal.I think i will have to put them under the 70 inch tv in a wall cove and then put accoustic transparent cloth in front. I am hoping that having the room treated, room correction (ARC) and the dealer set up/tune it all, i should achieve a pleasuable listening enviromnent.
Also, here in Australia, the mark up is so high that a single descent i will set me back $5500. i think i will go with either 2 svs SB12 or 2 emotiva x ref12.that s pretty much all i can afford at this stage and keep the peace in the house.....May be i can push to 2 grottoi but not so sure.
regards
froggy

 

[Nielsen]

Ooops, didnt see you were from Australia, sorry mate.
Personally I love the Grottoi, would have bought it myself for sure had it not been for my eagerness to please the wife with small shoebox of a subwoofer.
SVS is a really good idea, they go deep and are really good. Beware if you plan on using hi-level inputs from the speakers, many SVS dont have this.
If you order two SB12 subs you will usually get quite a discount.

 

[jmstpierre]

Hi neilsen,
Yes indeed here in Australia, the mark up is huge and it seems that importers are buisness men first , audio enthusiast second.
As an example, I know of an audio dealer that swore and love and use to sell anthem range of product but now, they still praise the brand but do not sell them due to a conflict on pricing of items and extreme mark up.
As for subs, I auditioned a rel r328 and was pretty impressed. I will audition the 528 when comes in and I think the wif won t have a problem with it too as it s fairly compact. The pricing is attractive to, only $2000 au.
I will only go one now and may be sneak another latter.
Regards

 

[jmstpierre]

i just noticed that there is another british company that builds and sells subwoofers directly at very competitive price.
anybody ever heard of BK electronics.
They look very similar to rel and even have the same neutrik connections.
any advice one those sub matching with ML would be great.
regards

 

[Nielsen]

I have no experience with these, but yes, they look axactly like REL. If you do a search you will see that they are quite popular in Britain. I dont know what the deal is with BK, but it surely looks like an OEM product from REL.
For your info, my REL T3 is now out of production, but this little thing goes flat to 30 hz and then rolls of, very impressive for such a small thing. I never play loud....
The nearest REL to the T3 will probably be the REL T5, and isf you have a big room the T7. i would recommend you buy two smaller subwoofers instead of one bigger, you get much better coverage, even bass in the room.

 

[nerijus]

Don't think there will. Be any difference which you choose

 

[Janibrewski]

Hi Edwin,
I did try the subs in the corners and much prefer the 1/3 down the side walls.I have ASC tube traps 16x78 in all 4 corners.

Jumstpierre- The Martin Logan Depth i sub is quite bit smller than the descent i and comes in many diffrent finishes.I find them to have a high degree of waf.Perhaps you could show your wife the custom finishes on the ML site.I find the ML subs look more appealing than a square box and think your wife would also.I ordered the stainless steel covers for over the controls on my depth i's which really dress it up.

+1. Depth i is WAF-city. I now have two (in maple to match the furniture), and just ordered a third. Overkill for my 22x16 living/family room for sure, but overkill beats under-kill, I've convinced myself. And the Depths are so compact and pretty, my wife doesn't mind.